fert opening

[michel444]

I am doing research on defence to fert opening

Forcing Pass system are banned by ACBL not because of the forcing pass opening but because of the fert opening and the artificial limited opening

 

a Fert opening is a bid that show 0-7 or 0-8 point and is very disturbing for the other side

[hv=pc=n&s=s75ht6432dk7cat43&w=sjt632hda953cqj82&n=sk8hkqj97dq842ck7&e=saq94ha85djt6c965&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1h(fert%200-8p)p2c(heart%20and%20other)p2h(3%2B%20H)ppp]399|300[/hv] SOUTH OPEN 1♥ promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP

WEST PASS

NORTH bid 2♣ showing 4+♥ and another suit 11-17 HCP

EAST PASS

SOUTH BID 2♥ giving his partner "support" 3+♥

all PASS

THIS IS A VERY BAD EXAMPLE

but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in ♠ of East-West that they can not bid

Michel

[foobar]

but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in ♠ of East-West that they can not bid

Michel

 

Seems like West can easily pre-balance with 2♠ with the void, having passed earlier. N/S will probably compete to 3♥.

[michel444]

ANOTHER EXAMPLE

[hv=pc=n&s=st862hkt2da92cj72&w=saj9hqj93d3ca6543&n=sq4h87djt8764ct98&e=sk753ha654dkq5ckq&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1h(FERT%20H%200-8)dp(3%2BH)p(3%2BH)2d(SCRAMBLING)]399|300[/hv]

 

THIS IS MORE INTERSTING

North open 1♥ 0-8 HCP AND 13 CARDS

East double 4+♥ 14+ HPC

SOUTH PASS 3+♥

WEST PASS 3+♥ FOR PENALITIE

NORTH bid 2♦

can not remember how East is suposed to show 4 cards ♠

have to find my note about it

west bid 4♥

[michel444]

Seems like West can easily pre-balance with 2♠ with the void, having passed earlier. N/S will probably compete to 3♥.

I had never see someone balancing 2♠ with a 4 cards suit

I am not teling if its right or wrong ...

[foobar]

I had never see someone balancing 2♠ with a 4 cards suit

I am not teling if its right or wrong ...

 

 

Wasn't West 5=0=4=4 in the original problem?

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sjt632hda953cqj82&e=shdc]266|100[/hv]

[foobar]

ANOTHER EXAMPLE

[hv=pc=n&s=st862hkt2da92cj72&w=saj9hqj93d3ca6543&n=sq4h87djt8764ct98&e=sk753ha654dkq5ckq&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1h(FERT%20H%200-8)dp(3%2BH)p(3%2BH)2d(SCRAMBLING)]399|300[/hv]

 

THIS IS MORE INTERSTING

North open 1♥ 0-8 HCP AND 13 CARDS

East double 4+♥ 14+ HPC

SOUTH PASS 3+♥

WEST PASS 3+♥ FOR PENALITIE

NORTH bid 2♦

can not remember how East is suposed to show 4 cards ♠

have to find my note about it

west bid 4♥

 

What's the problem here? Seems like E/W reached the right game. East can pass over 2♦, and it should be forcing. Over the reopening X, East can bid 3♦ to show a flexible hand, and then raise 3♥ to 4.

[Douglas43]

As somebody with no intention of playing forcing pass, I am beginning to think that it should be legalised. Mind you, I still think opponents should be allowed to double "pass".

[michel444]

another Example

[hv=pc=n&s=s54ht5432dqt3ca93&w=st863hq7dj84cq872&n=saqjhkj86dak7ckj4&e=sk972ha9d9652ct65&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p]399|300[/hv]

made a mistake tryibg to put bid in diagram exchanging West and East

East deal and pass

south open a fert 1♥ promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP

West PASS

North make a forcing relay with 1 ♠ / 18+ HCP ANY SHAPE

East PASS

SOUTH BID 2♥ / PROMISING 5 + ♥ 5-7 (8) HCP

WEST PASS

NORTH bid 4♥

all PASS

[michel444]

As somebody with no intention of playing forcing pass, I am beginning to think that it should be legalised. Mind you, I still think opponents should be allowed to double "pass".

l LOL

I LOOKED a few hour ago on the ACBL regulation

not only FORCINH PASS IS ILEGAL

BUT MOSCITO is not legal too; because it use Transfer opening

MOSCITO opening

1♣ 15+ HCP any shape / 17+ HCP IN chair 3 or 4

1♦ 4+♥ 9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair

1♥ 4+♠ 9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair

1♠ 4+♦9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair

1NT balanced no 5 cards major 11-14 HCP

2♣ 6+♣ 0-3♦ / SOME VERSION MAY HAVE A 4 CARDS MAJOR

2♦ AND ABOVE ARE PRE

4 YEAR AGO WAS A THREAD IN BRIDGE WINNER ABOUT PROPOPSING DEFENSE TO transfer opening

 

 

 

mICHEL

[michel444]

link

https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/suggested-defenses-against-a-moscito-type-1d-or-1h-opening/

 

the Defense comite in ACBL

REJECTED alll proposition of defesibe biding to transfer opening .

[dokoko]

In your original hand NS missed a 50% game. If ♠A is under the king, 10 tricks are easy. So it's not clear who was preempted.

[michel444]

I am doing research on defence to fert opening

Forcing Pass system are banned by ACBL not because of the forcing pass opening but because of the fert opening and the artificial limited opening

 

a Fert opening is a bid that show 0-7 or 0-8 point and is very disturbing for the other side

[hv=pc=n&s=s75ht6432dk7cat43&w=sjt632hda953cqj82&n=sk8hkqj97dq842ck7&e=saq94ha85djt6c965&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1h(fert%200-8p)p2c(heart%20and%20other)p2h(3%2B%20H)ppp]399|300[/hv] SOUTH OPEN 1♥ promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP

WEST PASS

NORTH bid 2♣ showing 4+♥ and another suit 11-17 HCP

EAST PASS

SOUTH BID 2♥ giving his partner "support" 3+♥

all PASS

THIS IS A VERY BAD EXAMPLE

but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in ♠ of East-West that they can not bid

Michel

I think somebody is trying to say this hand have 50% to make game

if south Dont open 1H (fwertil..) and pass west pass and ?

[pescetom]

I think somebody is trying to say this hand have 50% to make game

if south Dont open 1H (fwertil..) and pass west pass and ?

And NS will bid to some number of H, making 9 tricks. But there would be ten if SA was in West.

[michel444]

And NS will bid to some number of H, making 9 tricks. But there would be ten if SA was in West.

ok

and you are going to look for game with 13 HCP oposit opening pass with 7 HPC ?

BTW if you put the Ace of ♠ to West hand he will open 1 or 2 ♠

[nullve]

i just downloaded today Robson Segal book from here http://bridge.mgoetze.net/robson-segal.pdf

and you are going to look for game with 13 HCP oposit opening pass with 7 HPC ?

The book explains why. (It has something to do with having 5+5 trumps rather than 13+7 points.)

[mikeh]

Ferts are not banned solely by the ACBL

 

The WBF doesn’t allow it in world championship events, at least not in the round robin stages

 

If you can’t play it even then, frankly I don’t see why anyone would want to play it

 

There aren’t many players with a realistic hope of playing in any real event where it’s permitted, and I’m not saying it’s allowed even in the ko phase of world championships… the few times I’ve reached that stage, none of our opps played ferts so I didn’t have to worry about it

[DinDIP]

Ferts are not banned solely by the ACBL

 

The WBF doesn’t allow it in world championship events, at least not in the round robin stages

 

If you can’t play it even then, frankly I don’t see why anyone would want to play it

 

There aren’t many players with a realistic hope of playing in any real event where it’s permitted, and I’m not saying it’s allowed even in the ko phase of world championships… the few times I’ve reached that stage, none of our opps played ferts so I didn’t have to worry about it

 

Well, one New Zealand pair that proposed playing a forcing pass variant of their system was "encouraged" by John Wignall, the then South Pacific zonal WBF rep (from NZ), not to play such a system in the KO stages. The pair was advised that their submissions to the systems committee (?) would be rejected as incomplete because they did not provide sufficient detail about how they would handle actions by the opponents. The pair offered to remedy any specific deficiencies but was given to understand that there would be nothing they could do in time that would be sufficient. I understand that under the new regime at the WBF things would be handled differently if a pair expressed an intention to play a HUM system in the KO stages.

[hrothgar]

Well, one New Zealand pair that proposed playing a forcing pass variant of their system was "encouraged" by John Wignall, the then South Pacific zonal WBF rep (from NZ), not to play such a system in the KO stages. The pair was advised that their submissions to the systems committee (?) would be rejected as incomplete because they did not provide sufficient detail about how they would handle actions by the opponents. The pair offered to remedy any specific deficiencies but was given to understand that there would be nothing they could do in time that would be sufficient. I understand that under the new regime at the WBF things would be handled differently if a pair expressed an intention to play a HUM system in the KO stages.

 

 

John Wignall has been responsible for a bunch of shady stuff over the years.

 

I'm surprised he hasn't moved to the US.