1m - 1M - 2M with 3 cards

[temp3600]

Suppose, for the entire post, that 1NT is strong and that opener has exactly 3 cards in responder's major and a minimum opening (it can be a good minimum).

 

1. Opener's hand

 

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ? How would you rate these trump holdings for doing so : xxx, Hxx and HHx ?

1c. When would you raise partner with 6-3-3-1 or 5-4-3-1 ? Again, which trump holding do you prefer between xxx, Hxx, HHx ?

 

Please don't hesitate to mention the factors that you find important in choosing between the raise and another bid.

 

 

2. General direction after the raise.

 

2a. Do you think it's important to keep the NT strain in the picture, or on the contrary that the moysean fit is fine since opener will have a hand suited for it ?

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

Any thoughts, considerations, critics are welcome.

 

 

3. Systems.

 

What systems do you like or think handle the situation nicely ?

 

I'm particularly interested in one that would allow opener to distinguish between 1) 3- and 4-card raises, 2) completely minimum and good minimum, and that also would allow the partnership to play 3NT.

 

 

Thanks for your time,

 

Michael

[Winstonm]

A fair question. For me the rebid problem boiled down to continuations - we sacrificed the 3-card raise in order to have more types of game tries. Because of this, opener must rebid 1NT with any balanced minimum and only raise with 4-card support. So I face a different problem: How often then is it right with a weakish hand to rebid a 5-card major as responder?

 

I don't think this is our "best" solution; however, it is an "adequate" solution as we give game/slam-bidding priority over partscore accuracy.

 

WinstonM

[david_c]

1. Opener's hand

 

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

 

No. But some people do.

 

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ? How would you rate these trump holdings for doing so : xxx, Hxx and HHx ?

 

I might consider it with 5-3-3-2 and a poor doubleton. But I would usually prefer to rebid 1NT. I don't feel that the trump holding makes much difference to the decision.

 

1c. When would you raise partner with 6-3-3-1 or 5-4-3-1 ? Again, which trump holding do you prefer between xxx, Hxx, HHx ?

 

I'd nearly always raise with 5-4-3-1 (unless the hand is strong enough to bid the 4-card suit and support later). With a 6-3-3-1 it mainly depends how good the 6-card suit is. However, with a hand which is only slightly too weak for a jump rebid, I'd sometimes prefer to raise rather than rebid my 6-card suit because the raise sounds more encouraging.

 

2. General direction after the raise.

 

2a. Do you think it's important to keep the NT strain in the picture, or on the contrary that the moysean fit is fine since opener will have a hand suited for it ?

 

There is so much space available after the raise that it's silly to restrict your attention to major-suit contracts.

 

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

Depends on system.

 

3. Systems.

 

What systems do you like or think handle the situation nicely ?

 

I think it's important that responder should have some sort of forcing relay available, and to agree which bids set the major as trumps and which don't. Otherwise slam bidding is very difficult (I found this out to my cost a while ago, when partner passed my exclusion-KCB). Apart from that, it doesn't matter much.

[OSH]

Hi Michael.

 

Originally, in our system we supported with 3 cards with a void or a singleton.

Now we support with (almost) every hand different from 4333, no matter the quality of support.

After this, the responder can:

- bid 2nt (invitational) or 3nt with a 4 cards suit

- bid a new colour as a trial bid, showing a 5 cards suit

- bid 3 in the pard's suit, showing 4 cards but forcing (necessary if you have to decide if you can play a suit slam), asking if he has 3 or 4 cards.

[flytoox]

Three card raise is more about judgement than system. With AQx,xxx,xxx,KQJx, I would raise pd's 1S to 2S. However, switch the major suits, I would rebid 1N.

 

Mike Lawrence's 2/1 workbook has a chapter about 3-card raise. It should be able to answer all your questions here.

[mr1303]

Hmmm worrying:

 

I frequently raise on 4333 shape if I have an unstopped suit and Hxx in support. Unlike Dave by the look of things.

 

Similarly with 5332. In fact, I think I'll raise every time with Hxx in support unless I've a hand suitable to jump rebid something.

 

To be fair, Dave did bid exclusion keycard in my first suit, so when he returned to it it wasn't clear that he meant it as exclusion.

 

The auction was

 

1D 1H

2H 5D

 

Is this clearly exclusion RKCB?

[david_c]

Hmmm worrying:

 

I frequently raise on 4333 shape if I have an unstopped suit and Hxx in support.

Yes, I know you do. But I usually don't - hadn't you noticed? :D

 

To be fair, Dave did bid exclusion keycard in my first suit, so when he returned to it it wasn't clear that he meant it as exclusion.

 

The auction was

 

1D 1H

2H 5D

 

Is this clearly exclusion RKCB?

I think it ought to be, at least opposite a Precision 1♦; but it's far from clear, so I shouldn't have done it. But I was completely stuck for a bid (apart from blasting 6♥ or 7♥) because I didn't know how to set trumps. Hence my advice that you need to know which bids set the major as trumps ...

[luke warm]

everything depends on the system you're playing, so taking your 3rd question first i'm pretty sure the weiss club (among other systems) would handle this very well.. limited openings, shape showing bids, etc, and the fact that opener's 1st suit is never supported without 4+ cards make things simpler

 

but in a more standard system

 

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

 

- no, i'd rebid nt usually (unless it was hongjun's example A,Q,x or something)

 

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ? How would you rate these trump holdings for doing so : xxx, Hxx and HHx ?

 

- assuming i opened the 5 card suit, same answer as above

 

1c. When would you raise partner with 6-3-3-1 or 5-4-3-1 ? Again, which trump holding do you prefer between xxx, Hxx, HHx ?

 

- i'd rebid my suit with 6, i'd bid the 4 card suit with 5431 (if i'm strong enough), hoping to show the 3 card support later

 

2a. Do you think it's important to keep the NT strain in the picture, or on the contrary that the moysean fit is fine since opener will have a hand suited for it ?

 

- nt is always important, imo

 

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

- opener, by showing his dist with 1st rebid...then support shows 3... however, responder also has some responsibility if opener *could* have raised with 3... he can bid nt if hand warrants further bidding, to show original 4

 

rebidding the nt loses very little when ckback, xyz, nmf or the like is played.. responder with a weak hand and 5 card suit can just rebid it, knowing 5/2 at worst

[Guest Jlall]

Suppose, for the entire post, that 1NT is strong and that opener has exactly 3 cards in responder's major and a minimum opening (it can be a good minimum).

 

1. Opener's hand

 

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ? How would you rate these trump holdings for doing so : xxx, Hxx and HHx ?

1c. When would you raise partner with 6-3-3-1 or 5-4-3-1 ? Again, which trump holding do you prefer between xxx, Hxx, HHx ?

 

Please don't hesitate to mention the factors that you find important in choosing between the raise and another bid.

 

 

2. General direction after the raise.

 

2a. Do you think it's important to keep the NT strain in the picture, or on the contrary that the moysean fit is fine since opener will have a hand suited for it ?

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

Any thoughts, considerations, critics are welcome.

 

 

3. Systems.

 

What systems do you like or think handle the situation nicely ?

 

I'm particularly interested in one that would allow opener to distinguish between 1) 3- and 4-card raises, 2) completely minimum and good minimum, and that also would allow the partnership to play 3NT.

 

 

Thanks for your time,

 

Michael

1a) never under any circumstances. seems completely misguided

 

1b) 5332 sure with Hxx and a weak doubleton. 4432...depends...sometimes :D

 

1c) 5431 pretty much always, even with xxx, a few exceptions. 6331 if I have a minimum hand i will rebid the 6 card suit. If I'm fine encouraging partner to become agressive, i'll raise with Hxx or better. He is more likely to game try if you raise him.

 

2a) yes obviously responder should keep NT in play and not assume a fit.

B) Again, responder should not assume 4 card support.

 

3) many top players use the next step up (2S over hearts, 2N over spades) as an asking bid. Opener can usually show min/max 3/4 trumps and unbal/bal.

[inquiry]

1. Opener's hand

 

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

 

No

 

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ?

 

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends upon convient rebid with my hand

 

How would you rate these trump holdings for doing so : xxx, Hxx and HHx ?

 

Quality of my support is not the issue, three small is fine if I feel raise is better than not. The quality of the xx is important.

 

1c. When would you raise partner with 6-3-3-1 or 5-4-3-1 ? Again, which trump holding do you prefer between xxx, Hxx, HHx ?

 

Yes i raise. I prefer HHx but raise with any of them

 

2. General direction after the raise.

 

2a. Do you think it's important to keep the NT strain in the picture, or on the contrary that the moysean fit is fine since opener will have a hand suited for it ?

 

I don't mind moysean, but NT is always in play if partner takes another bid, just not 2NT as final contract because I play that by responder seeking more info.

 

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

Responder probes gentle to find best contract when he holds only four. This is one of the uses of the forcing 2NT bid.

 

3. Systems.

 

What systems do you like or think handle the situation nicely ?

 

I'm particularly interested in one that would allow opener to distinguish between 1) 3- and 4-card raises, 2) completely minimum and good minimum, and that also would allow the partnership to play 3NT.

 

2NT seeks more info after raise, with minimum 3 card support opener bids below 3 of the major. With min and four card support opener bids 3 of the major. With 4 support and max, opener forces to 4 major, with 3 and max, opener bids a new suit, or rebids 3NT

[pclayton]

1. Opener's hand

 

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

 

never

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ? How would you rate these trump holdings for doing so : xxx, Hxx and HHx ?

 

With either of these with a weak doubleton I'll raise. You didn't want to hear this, but this is a good reason to play 12-14 NT.

 

1c. When would you raise partner with 6-3-3-1 or 5-4-3-1 ? Again, which trump holding do you prefer between xxx, Hxx, HHx ?

 

Depends on how good the 6 bagger is. Trump quality doesn't matter too much.

 

 

2. General direction after the raise.

 

2a. Do you think it's important to keep the NT strain in the picture, or on the contrary that the moysean fit is fine since opener will have a hand suited for it ?

 

Sure its important to keep NT in the picture. We don't play 4-3 fits for their own sake.

 

 

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

Its responder's responsibility. If the partnership can raise on 3, we just don't bash directly into game once we are raised.

 

3. Systems.

 

What systems do you like or think handle the situation nicely ?

 

I'm particularly interested in one that would allow opener to distinguish between 1) 3- and 4-card raises, 2) completely minimum and good minimum, and that also would allow the partnership to play 3NT.

 

Play some sort of "checkback" after 1x - 1 major - 2 major. Many now play 2N as some sort of ask - our version:

 

3♣ - minimum with 3 trump

3♦ - max with 3 trump

3♥ - min with 4 trump

3♠ - max with 4 trump but balanced

3N - exactly 4333 and max.

4x - 4 trump, max and shortness

[mikestar]

1. Opener's hand

 

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

 

Pretty much never.

 

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ? How would you rate these trump holdings for doing so : xxx, Hxx and HHx ?

 

Here the test is how NT oriented vs suit oriented the hand is. The strength of the doubleton is quite important: xx suggests the raise, Kx or Qx suggest 1NT, Ax and Jx are fairly neutral. Aces and to a lesser extent Kings in the other two suits, Queens and to a lesser extent Jacks suggest 1NT. The trump holding scarcely matters: HHx fills in the suit excellently, but there is less chance of a ruff than with xxx. If still in doubt, I prefer 1NT

 

1c. When would you raise partner with 6-3-3-1 or 5-4-3-1 ? Again, which trump holding do you prefer between xxx, Hxx, HHx ?

 

Almost always, unless the stiff is a king or Queen, then I use the judgement criteria for 5332 or 4432, but prefering the raise when in doubt.

 

 

2. General direction after the raise.

 

2a. Do you think it's important to keep the NT strain in the picture, or on the contrary that the moysean fit is fine since opener will have a hand suited for it ?

 

It isn't either/or. NT is in the picture even with an 8-card fit if the hands are sufficiently NT oriented, while the Moysian fit is fine if the hands are sufficiently suit oriented. When the orientation is not clear, we want to be in the suit with 8 trumps and in NT with 7,

 

 

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

The three card raise is a normal part of bidding in most natural systems and when used with decent judgement is better than the other distortions you need to have your raise guarantee four. Responder must allow for it.

 

3. Systems.

 

What systems do you like or think handle the situation nicely ?

 

I've played various continuations. The simple agreement that reponder's 3M shows 5 and anything below 3M shows 4 gets the job done fairly often, though with detailed agreements you can do better.

 

Weak NT systems are much superior in this sequence (they have their losing cases elsewhere). Playing weak NT 1x-1M-2M can guarantee either 4 card support or a stiff.

[whereagles]

The three card raise is a normal part of bidding in most natural systems

I disagree. That sort of 3 card raise is advocated by no system that I know of. (But it doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. I actually like it a lot.)

 

The first time I saw 3 card raises mentioned was in Robson/Segal's competitive bidding book, and there the idea was to help a responder with 5 cards in case opps protect the bidding later.

[Chamaco]

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

 

No.

 

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ?

 

This depends a lot fronm the rest of the system.

Playing the way described by OSH, (2NT/3NT responder's rebid is invitational/GF with 4 trumps only, pass or correct for opener), I like to raise with any 3 card raise (except 4333), because it does not commit absolutely to a suit contract.

 

In other words, you risk playing in a Moysian fit (4-3) only at the 2 level.

 

INSTEAD, some people play that after 1m:1M:2M, next step is a relay asking for shape, and there is no way to play in 2NT.

Using such a scheme, which forces toi play a suit contract, even a 43 firt at the 3-4 level, it is more effective for opener to raise with suit-oriented hands, e.g. hands with shortness OR semibalanced hands with weak doubleton and/or 2 unstopped suits, and/or lack of tenaces and slow tricks.

 

2. General direction after the raise.

 

This is the key issue you need to decide.

 

Let's say 1♣:1♠:2♠: ?

 

If now 2NT is "natural", then opener may raise more freely with 3 trumps.

If 2NT is relay ask, then opener is better advised to raise with 3 cards only if the hand is suit oriented.

 

 

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

To have good play in a Moysian fit, the hand with 3 trumps should either:

- be short in the weak suit to avoid losing control

- have a long strong side suit, to use as "substitute trumps".

 

Also, texture of the suits, and quality of the controls is important.

Hands with many AK's are good for suit contracts, hands with many QJ109's and many tenaces are best for NT.

[Guest Jlall]

Weak NT systems are much superior in this sequence (they have their losing cases elsewhere). Playing weak NT 1x-1M-2M can guarantee either 4 card support or a stiff.

In strong NT the same applies if you never raise on 3 trumps in a balanced hand.

 

4 trumps or a stiff.

 

I don't think it's the NT range that makes this possible, it is that you dont raise on 3 trumps and a strong NT hand type.

[mikestar]

The three card raise is a normal part of bidding in most natural systems

I disagree. That sort of 3 card raise is advocated by no system that I know of. (But it doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. I actually like it a lot.)

 

The first time I saw 3 card raises mentioned was in Robson/Segal's competitive bidding book, and there the idea was to help a responder with 5 cards in case opps protect the bidding later.

I should have said "most natural North American systems", I don't have the expertise about what they're playing in Europe/Asia/etc.

[Elianna]

1. Opener's hand

 

1a. Would you raise partner with 4-3-3-3 ?

 

With most partners, no. With Adam (my most frequent partner), honestly, depends on my mood, but I tend to prefer raising (I prefer to let him play :)). (And that was joking, for those of you that can't tell).

 

1b. When would you raise partner with 5-3-3-2 or 4-4-3-2 ? How would you rate these trump holdings for doing so : xxx, Hxx and HHx ?

 

With most partners, if my doubleton is two small, and Hxx or HHx, yes. With Adam, always.

 

1c. When would you raise partner with 6-3-3-1 or 5-4-3-1 ? Again, which trump holding do you prefer between xxx, Hxx, HHx ?

 

I'm a really bad person to judge by this. I try to choose the bid that best describes my hand. If my shape is 3=6=3=1, I will usually rebid hearts. If the six card suit is a minor, it depends on the strength of the suit (will it play better as trump, is it so aweful that it should be considered a five card suit, is it so sufficient AKQJTx that it could play in any contract).

 

Same with the 5-4 hand. It depends more on where my honors are, and what my strength is, to know what most describes my hand. I almost always will be raising partner's suit, unless my four card suit is hearts, partner bids spades, and I'm strong enough to reverse. The only other example I can think of is a hand like AQxx xxx AQxxx x, where I would bid 1S playing with most people, and 2H playing with Adam (and prolly a few other people).

 

2. General direction after the raise.

 

2a. Do you think it's important to keep the NT strain in the picture, or on the contrary that the moysean fit is fine since opener will have a hand suited for it ?

 

Well, if you have the agreement to only raise when you prefer to play in a 4-3 fit than NT, then it seems useful to have a method to diagnose if partner has a holding that might work better with your short suit in NT than it would in a suit.

 

However, since Adam and I tend to raise on almost any three card support (especially with a minimum) we have agreements on what bids mean after 1m-1M-2M. For example: 1d-1h-2h-2s shows four spades (and only four hearts) and a game force. Opener is supposed to further clarify his shape. Also, bidding NT is our usual method of inviting to game (or forcing game with 3NT) with only four trump. I guess this also answers the later question.

 

2b. Who's "job" is it to cater for, or at least warn about, the moysean fit ? For example, responder could bid as if he was certain of a 4-4 fit, and so it would be opener's task to warn about his support. Or the responsibility could be shared by both, etc.

 

See above. We place responsibility on responder.

 

3. Systems.

 

What systems do you like or think handle the situation nicely ?

 

I have no idea what handles this easily. I just know that I like this because it's easy for me to remember, and because I always like to cooperate and support partner when possible.

[awm]

Elianna pretty much stated my view on this. I've obtained surprisingly good results from raising on 4333 hands (and bad results those times I've chosen not to raise). There often seem to be very pretty dummy reversal lines to make extra trick(s) in 2M. I should also mention that our style is such that we frequently rebid 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit, and almost never rebid 2M with only five cards. This means we tend to play some 4-3 major fits and "miss" some 5-2 major fits, both of which I believe are pretty much a wash in the long run... but we have substantial wins on the "problem" hands with stiff in partner's suit (i.e. weakish 1444 after 1m-1S).

 

As for system, what we play over 1x-1M-2M is quite simple. Suit bids are natural and game forcing, and tend deny five cards in the original major unless looking for slam. 2NT is a game try with four trumps and 3M is a game try with five trumps (both nonforcing). We do have fewer game tries than most people, but the auction 1x-1M-2M is a lot more defined than the auction 1M-2M: opener's range is much narrower, and some distributional information is known (i.e. tend to have cards in suit x that was opened). So we don't believe that having a huge number of descriptive game tries here is that critical. On the other hand, we do a very good job of finding the right game (deciding between 3NT and 4M).

 

Some questions for those who play 2NT "asking/relay" type methods in these auctions:

 

(1) What if responder has a game try? Are you committed to playing 3M on a 4-3 fit when opener shows a minimum with three trumps? Certainly 2NT seems unreachable.

 

(2) Suppose you find out that opener has only 3-card support. Can you determine additional info about opener's hand such that you can evaluate whether to play 3NT or 4M (on the moysian)? For example, knowledge of opener's singleton (if any) would seem to be critical in this decision process.

 

I've never been able to resolve these issues to my satisfaction, which is part of why Elianna and I adopted more natural methods.

[helene_t]

I find this a difficult dilema, and in fact it was the primary reason to adopt T-Walsh. So we never have the problem with balanced hands, which we open 1♣ and then accept partner's transfer with 3-card support.

 

Like Elianna and Adam, we frequently rebid 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit. So responder will almost never bid a 5-card twice. This makes it more attractive for opener to raise with 3-card support.

 

I wonder if

1♦-1♠

2♠-3♦

should be forcing. It probably is. If so, is there any way to stop in 3♦ (via 2NT, for example?)

[flytoox]

The three card raise is a normal part of bidding in most natural systems

I disagree. That sort of 3 card raise is advocated by no system that I know of. (But it doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. I actually like it a lot.)

 

The first time I saw 3 card raises mentioned was in Robson/Segal's competitive bidding book, and there the idea was to help a responder with 5 cards in case opps protect the bidding later.

I should have said "most natural North American systems", I don't have the expertise about what they're playing in Europe/Asia/etc.

At least in Acol, you can raise with 3 cards. So it should not be only in north america...

[david_c]

(2) Suppose you find out that opener has only 3-card support. Can you determine additional info about opener's hand such that you can evaluate whether to play 3NT or 4M (on the moysian)? For example, knowledge of opener's singleton (if any) would seem to be critical in this decision process.

If you do play a 2♠ or 2NT relay, then opener's responses will usually identify whether he has a singleton, so for example:

 

1♦:1♠,2♠:2NT -

 

3♣ = shows 4 clubs --> shortage in hearts

3♦ = shows 6 diamonds

3♥ = shows 4 hearts --> shortage in clubs

others = 4-card spade support

 

This is the natural version, and it doesn't cater for opener raising with 3 cards in a balanced hand. If you do raise with this type of hand, it's probably better to play a natural 2NT. (But I'd still want to have some sort of relay available, perhaps 3om as an artificial GF.)

[Gerben42]

I raise on 3 cards only if I have a singleton.

 

Then 2M+1 asks partner about his distribution.

 

2M+2 = low single (then 2M+3 asks 3- or 4-card support)

2M+3 = high single (then 2M+4 asks 3- or 4-card support)

2M+4 = 5422

3M = balanced minimum

3NT = balanced maximum

 

Other bids are long suit trial bids.

[inquiry]

I wonder if

1♦-1♠

2♠-3♦

should be forcing. It probably is. If so, is there any way to stop in 3♦ (via 2NT, for example?)

I play this auction (1m-1M-2M-3m) as non-forcing, but invitational. I have stopped in 3m many times. This probably addresses awm's concern as well, as it deals with 1m-1M-2m-2NT, where 2NT is stronger than this invitational 3m raise. It hardly makes sense to play this 3m as forcing if you use 2NT inquiry.

 

1m-1M-2M-3m, opener passes with most hands with only three card support for the major, and bids 3/4 of the Major with four card suit, depending upon values. Pass is not forced on opener with three card support, however. For me, 3NT would probalby not be an option (has been so far).

 

On 1m-1M-2M-2NT, opener has a few options available.

• 3♣ = 3 card support (even if diamond opened). This is presumably forcing EVEN if clubs was first bid suit, because if opener was willing to stop in 3m opposite this hand, he would bid 3m.
  
• 3♦ maximum and four card support for major (even if diamonds was opened, obvioulsy game forcing,
  
• 3M = minimum and four card support,
  
• 3OM = maximum for 2M and splinter in major with three card support
  
• 3NT = maximum and splinter in other minor with 3 card support
  
• 4m = splinter in other major, four card support
  
• 4om = splinter, four card support
  

Over 3♣, responder bids 3 of the major as a signoff. He bids 3OM showing value location (forcing), and he bids 3♦ (even if diamonds was the first bid suit) to invite game in the major or minor. Opener rebids 3M with a I am really sorry I opened hand, while openers 4♣ and 4♦ are now splinters (but not max), and 3NT is suggestion of contract with stopper in OM, 3OM shows general values, but no stopper in this major, 4M shows 3226 hand.

 

The downside is you can't play 2NT, as others have pointed out. But 2NT is not a great contract, especially if partner raises 1M here with unbalanced hand. It turns out these generally play better in the 4-3 major fit, or the minor 5-2, 5-3, or 6-2, 6-3 fit.

 

This has proven to be very playable, and with the splinter bids mixed in, pinpoints when moysian would be preferred to 3NT.

[whereagles]

The three card raise is a normal part of bidding in most natural systems

I disagree. That sort of 3 card raise is advocated by no system that I know of. (But it doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. I actually like it a lot.)

 

The first time I saw 3 card raises mentioned was in Robson/Segal's competitive bidding book, and there the idea was to help a responder with 5 cards in case opps protect the bidding later.

I should have said "most natural North American systems", I don't have the expertise about what they're playing in Europe/Asia/etc.

Well, if 3-card raises are normal in Acol and sayc, then it's probably me then who didn't yet read too much about systems... LOL

[Guest Jlall]

Some questions for those who play 2NT "asking/relay" type methods in these auctions:

 

(1) What if responder has a game try? Are you committed to playing 3M on a 4-3 fit when opener shows a minimum with three trumps? Certainly 2NT seems unreachable.

 

(2) Suppose you find out that opener has only 3-card support. Can you determine additional info about opener's hand such that you can evaluate whether to play 3NT or 4M (on the moysian)? For example, knowledge of opener's singleton (if any) would seem to be critical in this decision process.

 

I've never been able to resolve these issues to my satisfaction, which is part of why Elianna and I adopted more natural methods.

I can get out in 3m but not 2N.