Takeout double disaster.... how to avoid?

[kereru67]

[hv=pc=n&s=st84h965d8653ckq2&w=sa2hj84daqj942caj&n=skq97haqt2dkc8754&e=sj653hk73dt7ct963&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1ddp1ndppp]399|300[/hv]

 

This went down for a huge number. I thought the double was OK according to the modern competitive style (shape is more important than HCP), and I can't fault the 1NT response. Should N attempt a rescue after W doubles? Or should N just not have doubled in the first place?

[mikeh]

In standard methods, 1N shows around 8-10 hcp. I have no issue with, say 10xxx as the ‘stopper’ if the rest of the hand meets those requirements. I have no issue with stretching with say 7 hcp but only with a real stopper.

 

Here we have no stopper and very few hcp, so 1N is wrong, imo.

 

What to bid? Personally I bid 1H.

 

Sure, that shows 4+ hearts, which I don’t have, but it’s the cheapest and smallest lie on a hand where every call we can make is a lie.

[smerriman]

and I can't fault the 1NT response.

It appears to be missing both the requisite points and diamond stopper, so it seems fault-worthy to me.

[michel444]

In standard methods, 1N shows around 8-10 hcp. I have no issue with, say 10xxx as the ‘stopper’ if the rest of the hand meets those requirements. I have no issue with stretching with say 7 hcp but only with a real stopper.

 

Here we have no stopper and very few hcp, so 1N is wrong, imo.

 

What to bid? Personally I bid 1H.

 

Sure, that shows 4+ hearts, which I don’t have, but it’s the cheapest and smallest lie on a hand where every call we can make is a lie.

1NT is wrong w/o doubt

1 ♥ does not promise 4+ cards but 3 cards and less then 8 point by "standart" method !!

 

I don't like the double of 1 diamond but have a dilema to bid 1 H or 1S over the 1 D

and more likely to bid 1 heart promising 3 Cards ♥ with 1+top honor partner must asumme 4+ ♥

in this case he will pass and west will play a happy contract of 2 ♦

I am not sugesting for other to do the same .

[kereru67]

Should I be suspicious that W found the devastating A♦ lead rather than the normal Q♦?

[sfi]

Should I be suspicious that W found the devastating A♦ lead rather than the normal Q♦?

Not at all. West has all the entries so leading the queen has nothing to gain over the ace.

[AL78]

It appears to be missing both the requisite points and diamond stopper, so it seems fault-worthy to me.

 

I agree. I play 1NT in this situation as 6-10 HCP with a stop and that South hand isn't close.

[sfi]

There are three reasons you don't want to push to bid 1NT on a poor hand with no other good bid. First, it means the bid is less constructive, making it harder to find your 3NT games effectively. Second, you can often scramble some trump tricks, especially when the opponents don't know you're in a 4-3 (or maybe 3-3) fit. Finally, it's really easy for the opponents to double you in 1NT when they should, and it's much harder to punish a low-level suit contract.

 

Just bid 1H on these hands - most of the time you'll be fine.

[mw64ahw]

How to avoid?

 

Try reversing the Takeout X and 1NT overcall so playing Power Doubles and a NT Takeout.

 

If your NT takeout gets doubled then runout sequences can be better defined.

If you end up in 1NT after a Power Double and this gets doubled then your downside is on average less

1♦ - 1NT - P - P

X - XX (4♠) - P? - 2♠

[bluenikki]

In standard methods, 1N shows around 8-10 hcp. I have no issue with, say 10xxx as the ‘stopper’ if the rest of the hand meets those requirements. I have no issue with stretching with say 7 hcp but only with a real stopper.

 

Here we have no stopper and very few hcp, so 1N is wrong, imo.

 

What to bid? Personally I bid 1H.

 

Sure, that shows 4+ hearts, which I don’t have, but it’s the cheapest and smallest lie on a hand where every call we can make is a lie.

The important thing for advancer is to be prepared to bid 1♥ in tempo. Plan it as soon as the double is made.

 

If doubler is going to raise with that hand, it will be a good lesson for them.

[LBengtsson]

As other commentators said 1NT is the wrong bid. That said, all I can add is that some hands will be a disaster wherever you play. The interesting question on this hand is whether North is worth a raise given that West will bid again. For some players it will be automatic to raise to 2♥ here when South bids 1♥, if West bids 2♦.

[mikeh]

As other commentators said 1NT is the wrong bid. That said, all I can add is that some hands will be a disaster wherever you play. The interesting question on this hand is whether North is worth a raise given that West will bid again. For some players it will be automatic to raise to 2♥ here when South bids 1♥, if West bids 2♦.

I’m not one who believes in ‘automatic’ raises. I trust my partners to compete, with the right hand, after I pass over 2D if and when I do so.

 

Here, I suspect I’d succumb to the temptation despite the stiff diamond King, because I have my double without it and because I have very good hearts

 

However, I can’t be sure since we’ve seen the two hands and objectivity is now impossible. I think that in theory one should pass, precisely because 1H is always suspect in these auctions. Moreover, if partner is on the same page, he knows I’d be a little worried that I’d endplayed him with my double, so he should be willing to rebid even a 4 card heart suit with a near maximum 1H advance. If he was 4-4 majors, he should have bid 1S not 1H, to allow for being able to bid 2H over either a bid by the opps or a 2D bid by doubler.

[bluenikki]

I’m not one who believes in ‘automatic’ raises. I trust my partners to compete, with the right hand, after I pass over 2D if and when I do so.

 

Here, I suspect I’d succumb to the temptation despite the stiff diamond King, because I have my double without it and because I have very good hearts

 

However, I can’t be sure since we’ve seen the two hands and objectivity is now impossible. I think that in theory one should pass, precisely because 1H is always suspect in these auctions. Moreover, if partner is on the same page, he knows I’d be a little worried that I’d endplayed him with my double, so he should be willing to rebid even a 4 card heart suit with a near maximum 1H advance. If he was 4-4 majors, he should have bid 1S not 1H, to allow for being able to bid 2H over either a bid by the opps or a 2D bid by doubler.

My philosophy, which is not original with me, is that after a takeout double, advancer has sole responsibility for competing for the partscore.

 

Doubler bids at their second turn only if game is possible opposite the severely limited hands that make a simple suit bid.

[mikeh]

My philosophy, which is not original with me, is that after a takeout double, advancer has sole responsibility for competing for the partscore.

 

Doubler bids at their second turn only if game is possible opposite the severely limited hands that make a simple suit bid.

The problem with that, in competitive auctions, is that it’s common to double, say 1D, with 4=3=2=5 or 4=3=2=4. Thus after (1D) x (p) 1H (2D), if doubler passes advancer will often be unwilling to bid 2H even on a 5-6 count unless he has 5+ hearts

 

That’s why it is increasingly expert practice for doubler to compete over 2D with any 4 card fit unless really minimum for the double

 

Your philosophy is certainly how I treat doubler’s raise should opener pass 2D but I think you will lose far too many partscore battles if you don’t adjust when they compete.

[michel444]

How to avoid?

 

Try reversing the Takeout X and 1NT overcall so playing Power Doubles and a NT Takeout.

 

If your NT takeout gets doubled then runout sequences can be better defined.

If you end up in 1NT after a Power Double and this gets doubled then your downside is on average less

1♦ - 1NT - P - P

X - XX (4♠) - P? - 2♠

i like what you write there is the off shape double and t/o NT

on a t/o NT u tell partner i have a splinter in the opening suit

void or singlton so all the soft value in this suit are worth zero

if he have 7+ point not including point in diamond he bid a 4 -5 cards major at level 2 and a 6 cards at level 3

2♣ is a negative answer showing 0-7 point in the free suit

an off shape double promise 2+cards in openet suit and 14+ point

with 5 spade and 7 point partner cant jump to 2 spade...with 6 spade to 3 spade

[mw64ahw]

i like what you write there is the off shape double and t/o NT

on a t/o NT u tell partner i have a splinter in the opening suit

void or singlton so all the soft value in this suit are worth zero

if he have 7+ point not including point in diamond he bid a 4 -5 cards major at level 2 and a 6 cards at level 3

2♣ is a negative answer showing 0-7 point in the free suit

an off shape double promise 2+cards in openet suit and 14+ point

with 5 spade and 7 point partner cant jump to 2 spade...with 6 spade to 3 spade

Not quite how I play it.

 

The NT Takeout may not be a splinter in the opening suit and can be as low as 6hcp on say 6331 favourable up to 15. No need for a negative; 1NT should be doubled if opponents have the balance of points and your run out finds the best suit.

 

The Power X may be short openers suit with 17+ rather than 15+

[kereru67]

Knowing that my p is promising zero points, I would not consider raising a 1♥ response. My double has already indicated four card ♥ support and I have nothing over and above what I've described. I will take the opportunity to show a minimum double, p can bid again if they have anything decent. It's hardly the end of the world if we get left in a 4-3 fit in 1♥ and go off one or two.

[bluenikki]

The problem with that, in competitive auctions, is that it’s common to double, say 1D, with 4=3=2=5 or 4=3=2=4. Thus after (1D) x (p) 1H (2D), if doubler passes advancer will often be unwilling to bid 2H even on a 5-6 count unless he has 5+ hearts

 

Advancer must get bolder! (And learn how to play 4-3 fits.)

[mycroft]

Like all, I have serious issues with 1NT. It is 100% the wrong bid, and what happened at the table is why. Bid 1♥ and hope to survive.

 

I like all the explanations as to why this is not a 1NT response as well, but a key thing that has not been explicitly mentioned goes back to your comment about "shape more important than HCP" - we're ignoring the ♦K as HCP, right?

 

Partner DOES NOT WANT to hear 1NT from you. Partner is bidding on shape, and that shape is of minus value in NT (as opposed to a plus value in a suit). As a result, you have to have more values than "normal" to make up for that minus value.

 

So while partner will expect 5-9 or so for a suit response (knowing that zero is a possibility), partner will expect the 8-10 for 1NT that Mike et al mention. And unlike a suit response where partner will tread more carefully, they will count on that strength if you bid 1NT.

 

1NT is easy to double. Running from 1NTx, when you've already shown you don't have a fit you like, is even easier to double. 1 of a suit is not. With a bad hand, bid the suit and hope to survive. With the strength, bid 1NT, but be prepared for it to be a poor score even with the extra strength. Because when partner doubles, they are hoping not to hear 1NT from you.