michel444 Posted September 20, 2022 Report Share Posted September 20, 2022 [hv=pc=n&w=sq987hktdakjt65c9&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=pp1ddp1h]133|200[/hv] the double is an off shape double promising 2+cards in Diamond and 14+ HCP1♥ is Herbert negative promising 0-6(7) HPC any shape what message you get from both pass of partner ?what is your rebid ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 20, 2022 Report Share Posted September 20, 2022 It’s normal for partner to ignore the double if he has a hand that would respond 1M to 1D, so he won’t have 4S and (depending on your partnership responding style) 5 or 6+ hcp. It’s normal for 1N to show around 8-10 with side values and no major, so he won’t have that If you play that redouble shows 10+ (which used to be standard but isn’t anymore) then he doesn’t have that It’s normal to raise diamonds with a weak hand and a fit. How many diamonds he needs depends on how many diamonds you promised. If, as is still pretty standard but far from universal, you’d open 1D with 4=4=3=2 then he needs, usually 5+ to raise or 4 with a ruffing value. So he won’t have those hands. If you play weak jump shifts over the double, he won’t have that So you can see that the best way of visualizing his hand is by elimination. Since he won5 have values and spades, there’s little point in bidding 1S. But it’s losing bridge to pass. You have long diamonds and distribution. You want partner to compete with a fit…either to push them too high or to find a good save or to win a part score battle or to make it difficult for LHO to describe his hand. You choices appear to be 2D or 3D. I opt for 3D. I’m seduced by the diamond 10….I’m not joking….that 10 is a very important card if partner doesn’t have a fit for diamonds. I would bid only 2D if red v white and if 1H were natural but 3D at all other vulnerabilities. Is this always safe? No….but I think one needs to make life difficult for the opps. The fact that they play 1H as artificial is great. That style was popular many years ago…members of the Blue Team played it for years. Very few good players use it these days. I’ve played a fair amount of high level international bridge and never seen it played. I think it a terrible convention….and look what 3D does to them. Fit is as important as hcp and 3D preempts their ability to find a fit…. Indeed, the fact that they play this outdated convention makes bidding 3D even more obvious 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL78 Posted September 20, 2022 Report Share Posted September 20, 2022 It’s normal for partner to ignore the double if he has a hand that would respond 1M to 1D, so he won’t have 4S and (depending on your partnership responding style) 5 or 6+ hcp. It’s normal for 1N to show around 8-10 with side values and no major, so he won’t have that If you play that redouble shows 10+ (which used to be standard but isn’t anymore) then he doesn’t have that It’s normal to raise diamonds with a weak hand and a fit. How many diamonds he needs depends on how many diamonds you promised. If, as is still pretty standard but far from universal, you’d open 1D with 4=4=3=2 then he needs, usually 5+ to raise or 4 with a ruffing value. So he won’t have those hands. If you play weak jump shifts over the double, he won’t have that So you can see that the best way of visualizing his hand is by elimination. Since he won5 have values and spades, there’s little point in bidding 1S. But it’s losing bridge to pass. You have long diamonds and distribution. You want partner to compete with a fit…either to push them too high or to find a good save or to win a part score battle or to make it difficult for LHO to describe his hand. You choices appear to be 2D or 3D. I opt for 3D. I’m seduced by the diamond 10….I’m not joking….that 10 is a very important card if partner doesn’t have a fit for diamonds. I would bid only 2D if red v white and if 1H were natural but 3D at all other vulnerabilities. Is this always safe? No….but I think one needs to make life difficult for the opps. The fact that they play 1H as artificial is great. That style was popular many years ago…members of the Blue Team played it for years. Very few good players use it these days. I’ve played a fair amount of high level international bridge and never seen it played. I think it a terrible convention….and look what 3D does to them. Fit is as important as hcp and 3D preempts their ability to find a fit…. Indeed, the fact that they play this outdated convention makes bidding 3D even more obvious Interesting analysis, I wouldn't have thought of 3♦ and would bid 2♦ as I would have thought 3♦ shows a strong hand, something like close to a maximum 1-suit opening or equivalent playing strength, bearing in mind partner could have little in the way of useful cards. If a jump bid in the suit can show an intermediate hand with a good suit, what do you do with a maximum and the same shape, for example adding at least an ace to the given hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 20, 2022 Report Share Posted September 20, 2022 I’d double 1H. That cannot possibly be penalty….how can I have a hand that thinks it can take 7 tricks against 1H. Given that 1H is artificial (again, thank you, opps, for playing such a sub-optimal method), the double isn’t even ‘takeout’ as such. It just shows a good hand unable to bid 1N (good 18+) or 1S or any number of diamonds….then when I later bid diamonds, I have described my hand. I suppose it could show hearts, but why? Why show hearts when partner cannot have sufficient hearts and sufficient strength to warrant bidding to show west my shape? Bidding is difficult. Competitive bidding even more so. It’s important to bear in mind, in competitive auctions, that one has goals in addition to those we have in unobstructed auctions. We obviously still want to find our best spot but, in competitive auctions, especially when partner is weak, we also want to be difficult to play against Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akwoo Posted September 21, 2022 Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 Interesting analysis, I wouldn't have thought of 3♦ and would bid 2♦ as I would have thought 3♦ shows a strong hand, something like close to a maximum 1-suit opening or equivalent playing strength, bearing in mind partner could have little in the way of useful cards. If a jump bid in the suit can show an intermediate hand with a good suit, what do you do with a maximum and the same shape, for example adding at least an ace to the given hand? (Note GiB has this programmed "wrong".) My preference as a default rule in this position is that all hands with more than a minimum in high card strength must start with double or NT or a cue bid (here there is no cue bid). Everything else is distribution, and the higher you bid the more distributional but not more high card strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel444 Posted September 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 there real sequence EastSouthWestNorthSpade ♠J 62A T 3Q 987K 54 Heart ♥Q J 43965K TA 872 Diamond ♦72943A K J T 65Q 8 Club ♣Q 876J 5429A K T3 BidP1 H1S1NTMeaning F4+SbalancedPoint 0-812+14-17Note copying table diint work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel444 Posted September 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 the real sequence East passSouth open 1♥ Fert promising 13 cards (0-8 HCP)West bid 1♠ to show 4+♠ 0-3 ♥ and 12+ HCPNorth bid 1 NT to show a balanced hand of 14-17 HCP in hope that partner have a long suitEast pass he have nothing to propose and 5 HCP with QuackSouth passand East decide to pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 21, 2022 Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 This is intended for interesting hands Posting a ‘problem’ that is based upon both pairs playing methods that very few, if any, readers here know, understand, or want to understand is, to me at least, not at all interesting There is a sub forum intended for unusual system issues. It’s rarely read but I suggest you post these sorts of hands there 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel444 Posted September 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 This is intended for interesting hands Posting a ‘problem’ that is based upon both pairs playing methods that very few, if any, readers here know, understand, or want to understand is, to me at least, not at all interesting There is a sub forum intended for unusual system issues. It’s rarely read but I suggest you post these sorts of hands therethank you !if i understand you corecetly I am supposed to pass the post in a diferent forum ?how am I supposed to do that? ask the moderator to move the post in the apropriate forum ?michel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullve Posted September 21, 2022 Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 there real sequence EastSouthWestNorthSpade ♠J 62A T 3Q 987K 54 Heart ♥Q J 43965K TA 872 Diamond ♦72943A K J T 65Q 8 Club ♣Q 876J 5429A K T3 BidP1 H1S1NTMeaning F4+SbalancedPoint 0-812+14-17Note copying table diint workthe real sequence East passSouth open 1♥ Fert promising 13 cards (0-8 HCP)West bid 1♠ to show 4+♠ 0-3 ♥ and 12+ HCPNorth bid 1 NT to show a balanced hand of 14-17 HCP in hope that partner have a long suitEast pass he have nothing to propose and 5 HCP with QuackSouth passand East decide to passSo, something like[hv=pc=n&s=sat3h965d943cj542&w=sq987hktdakjt65c9&n=sk54ha872dq8cakt3&e=sj62hqj43d72cq876&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p1h(0-8, fert)1s(12+, 4+S3-H)1n(14-17 BAL)pp?]399|300[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel444 Posted September 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2022 So, something like[hv=pc=n&s=sat3h965d943cj542&w=sq987hktdakjt65c9&n=sk54ha872dq8cakt3&e=sj62hqj43d72cq876&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p1h(0-8, fert)1s(12+, 4+S3-H)1n(14-17 BAL)pp?]399|300[/hv]Thank you1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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