Support or Negative Double?

[giorgis_di]

Assuming the following sequences:

 

1 ♥ - 1 ♠ - dbl - pass

 

1♠ - 2♥ - dbl - pass

 

Here dbl shows 4-4 in minors or 2 cards support in ♥/ ♠ ?

 

Theory states that dbl shows exactly 4-4 in minors, but I tend to believe that exactly 2 cards support might be a better answer.

 

Any thoughts?

[mw64ahw]

For the first one I'd look for an hcp count of 8-10 so you can play in 1NT/2H opposite a balanced Min/54♥♠, so more encouragement than a specific shape. I would also X with a minimum 3 card limit raise using 2♠ to show stronger support.

 

For the 2nd I think you need 2♠4+minors/xx55 with 8-10hcp using a direct 2NT as a Weak/strong preempt in the minors with short♥

 

Alternatively just a strong hand with your own suit.

[DavidKok]

Neither description is completely correct, and I'm not a fan of mw64ahw's explanation either. The general meaning of a takeout-oriented double (like this one) is "I would like to take action, but have no convenient call available". Let's go through the alternatives instead on the first auction:

 

• Pass - any weak hand (most 0-5 HCP hands without a good fit, as well as some 6-7 HCP hands that don't have a good call).
  
• 1NT - approximately 6-10 HCP as normal, denies 3-card support, shows a spade stopper.
  
• 2♣/2♦ - forcing, about 8+ HCP (older books will insist that it shows 10+, but there are many 8-9 HCP hands where this might be the last shot you have at getting in on the auction), showing 5+ in the suit bid.
  
• 2♥ - about 4-9 HCP, 3(+) hearts.
  
• 2♠ - an invitational or stronger raise in hearts, about 9+ HCP. For me it shows exactly 3-card support, but this is an optional treatment.
  
• 2NT - invitational or stronger with 4(+) hearts (complement to the optional treatment of 2♠ showing exactly 3).
  
• 3♣/3♦ - A fitbid, showing typically 5(+) in the suit bid, 4(+) hearts and playing strength for the 3-level (need not be strong/invitational).
  
• 3♥ - a weak or mixed raise, depending on agreement.
  
• 3♠ - a game forcing splinter in hearts.
  
• 3NT - to play.
  

This leaves only hands that satisfy the following: at most 2-card heart support, no biddable 5-card minor, not 6-10 with a good spade stopper. Typically this will be exactly 3=2=4=4, but hands such as 2=2-(54), 3=1-(54) or 3=2-(53) may choose to take a view and double instead. At any rate it shows an almost balanced hand with about 8+ points, support for both minors and denies support for hearts. By negative inference (failure to bid 2m) it will usually show 3(+) spades.

 

On the second auction bidding 3m is a game force for most partnerships, and you have to put some intermediate hands with a longer minor in with either the double or a 2NT bid (playing a version of Good/Bad). Also the strength requirement is slightly higher, since passing with a boring 8 rates to be the percentage action, and also the 1NT call is no longer available. Other than that the inferences are the same.

[mw64ahw]

I prefer the older books where 2♣/♦ shows 10/11+ as this maintains the 2/1 GI structure if that is what you play.

[DavidKok]

You play the same structure, just lower the point requirements. Shape first in competition.

[giorgis_di]

Personally, I prefer (first case)

 

2 ♥ = 5-9hcp with 3+ fit,

2 ♠ = 10+ hcp with 3+ fit

 

I was thinking that 1NT by responder could be something like at least 4-4 in minors... Opener then can choose her best minor, passing if she has a stopper in ♠, bidding 2NT = minimum (bad) hand with at least 3-3 in minors, asking responder to choose a minor

[DavidKok]

Double already asks partner to bid 1NT with a spade stopper or pick a minor without one, with the option of rebidding hearts with extra length. You don't need 1NT for the same message.

[Gilithin]

As a general rule, X is negative by Responder and Support by Opener. That said, I have played auction #1 as 3 card support in a 4 card major context for many years and think that is a net winner over the more popular takeout. Similarly for (1m) - 1♥ - (1S) - X, which I have played as 2 hearts with some partners and as 3 hearts without a high honour with others. So by analogy, playing auction #1 as 2 hearts (or if preferred as ♥xxx) would seem to make sense.

Auction #2 is different. Here you just do not have the bidding space to make your more important and flexible call so specific. I would therefore very strongly suggest that you do not restrict this double only to hands containing precisely 2 spades.

[giorgis_di]

the message that 1NT conveys is that it denies 2 cards in ♥. On the contrary, dbl might also has 4-4 in minors but it has exactly 2 cards in ♥.

 

Particularly, having a 4 cards in ♠ my partner might wants to defend. Thus, 1nt is likely to mean 3=1-(54) or a more unbalanced hand

 

Thus, rebidding 2 ♥ after 1 NT respond opener has 7cards or a very good 6cards (something like AKQxxx). On the contrary, rebidding 2 ♥ after dbl opener might has a 5cards in ♥, without a stopper, that for some reason he/she does not want to play a contract in minors.

 

I don't know if such a differentiation between dbl and 1NT worths something or if it is completely pointless. I haven't tried it in practice

[giorgis_di]

As a general rule, X is negative by Responder and Support by Opener. That said, I have played auction #1 as 3 card support in a 4 card major context for many years and think that is a net winner over the more popular takeout. Similarly for (1m) - 1♥ - (1S) - X, which I have played as 2 hearts with some partners and as 3 hearts without a high honour with others. So by analogy, playing auction #1 as 2 hearts (or if preferred as ♥xxx) would seem to make sense.

Auction #2 is different. Here you just do not have the bidding space to make your more important and flexible call so specific. I would therefore very strongly suggest that you do not restrict this double only to hands containing precisely 2 spades.

 

I agree that auction #2 is more complex and you lack space for further bidding. In such a case, I would be more reluctant to play dbl to show minors

[Gilithin]

I agree that auction #2 is more complex and you lack space for further bidding. In such a case, I would be more reluctant to play dbl to show minors

X as specifically both minors would be unusual too. Generally it shows all of the hands that cannot easily be bid a different way that do not want to pass. Exactly which hands depends to some extent on how you play 2NT.

[michel444]

Assuming the following sequences:

 

1 ♥ - 1 ♠ - dbl - pass

 

1♠ - 2♥ - dbl - pass

 

Here dbl shows 4-4 in minors or 2 cards support in ♥/ ♠ ?

 

Theory states that dbl shows exactly 4-4 in minors, but I tend to believe that exactly 2 cards support might be a better answer.

 

Any thoughts?

the second case is more intersting

2♠ 3 card suport can be very weak

2NT limit raise or better with 4 cards ♠

 

Double 10+ point 3=2=4=4 distribution or 2=3=4=4 distribution

3 ♠ 4+♠ not good enaught to make a limit raise

the 3m are problematic how much you need to bid them ?

IMHO a solid 5 cards or good 6 cards more then 10 point

3♥ ask for heart stopper /

3 NT to play with a doubleton spade

can be based on a running minor and a heart stoper

like m AKQJ xxx ♥ Kxx ♠ xx