Terrible wrong

[thorvald]

Now I can understand that the bot often passes with balanced hands in these situations, but this looks wrong to me

[hv=pc=n&n=s7haj72d97432ct86&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=pp1h4sppdp?]133|200[/hv]

 

I don't think Pass can be a winning bid. Actually 6♥ is making, and 4♠ could have made on the right guess

[smerriman]

I think X is undefined for the robot, and it's forced to pass no matter what it holds.

[thorvald]

Double is defined as 2+♠, so presumably a penalty double

[smerriman]

Double is defined as 2+♠, so presumably a penalty double

No, I'm pretty sure it's undefined, not penalty. Undefined bids can add generic descriptions based on the level etc even if there are 0 rules that match the bid.

[thorvald]

No, I'm pretty sure it's undefined, not penalty. Undefined bids can add generic descriptions based on the level etc even if there are 0 rules that match the bid.

 

I was using the bidding area on BBO to test it, and the description said 2+♠

[smerriman]

I was using the bidding area on BBO to test it, and the description said 2+♠

I know - that's the 'generic description' I was talking about in my previous message.

 

By undefined I mean:

 

- GIB will never make the bid

- GIB has no idea what the bid means

- GIB will always pass in response

 

Double was undefined in 2012:

 

- the only matching rule for double is a priority 1 rule which says "if double hasn't been defined earlier, never double yourself, just update the description to 2+ of their suit if the human doubles" <-- generic description

- GIB was not allowed to bid 5♥ in response to the double, and all matching response rules are for strong hands that GIB can't hold due to the initial pass.

 

And today, GIB will pass the double even with an 8 card heart suit and spade void.

 

Therefore, all evidence points towards double (still) being undefined, not penalty.

[cherdano]

Wow I didn't know this.

[cherdano]

Btw, this is one of the many reasons the logic "See, GIB does fine in robot tournaments, so it can't be all that bad" is so terribly flawed. The more bids are undefined, the more they will lead to disasters - but only when playing with a human partner, as GIB itself will not make that undefined bid.

[smerriman]

Btw, this is one of the many reasons the logic "See, GIB does fine in robot tournaments, so it can't be all that bad" is so terribly flawed. The more bids are undefined, the more they will lead to disasters - but only when playing with a human partner, as GIB itself will not make that undefined bid.

That's somewhat true, but more from the sense of "the robots do better, because the robots understand their own system better", which is true regardless of whether or not bids are undefined. That is, in this case, the fact double is undefined is more likely to cause robots to do *worse* in the tournaments, because the vast majority of time South has a hand worth a double, North passing is correct, so it's the humans that profit from being able to double.

[cherdano]

But the problem is that the bots understand their system better in part because they misexplain it to us humans.

[thepossum]

Do the bots really understand their system?