SAYC in competition

[sdebois]

You are south, playing "SAYC full" with a pickup pd:

 

9 5

A Q 6 2

Q T

K J 9 7 4

 

Bidding goes (E opens, N-S vul) :

 

p - 1C - 1D - DBL

3D - ?

 

1) Does 3H show "extras"?

2) What would you bid and why?

[luis]

I really don't like my hand, the doubleton dQ is a minus in offense.

I'd pass in my opinion 3h does not necessary shows extra values but

it does show a hand interested in playing and this is not the case.

[Free]

True luis, but 3D support after the double is normally weak. So I'd bid 3H anyway (doesn't show extra values because partner can double from 6+HCP or even less in my partnership) just to show the fit, and minimal.

[hrothgar]

Let me get this straight:

 

Partner's negative double could be on a six count.

You have a BAD 12 count. The offensive "value" of the Queen of Diamonds is virtualy nil.

 

And this is encouraging you to bid 3H hoping that you won't get doubled?

3HX - 2 is not going to be a good score.

If a good player becomes aware of your aggressive pre-baalnces, they are going to start psyching weak actions just to hammer you at the three level.

 

[One of the players at the MIT club was infamous for balancing, which quick lead to the development of the "Binkly Oriented Trap Pass"? Holding game forcing values with a balanced hand and no fit for partner, you simply passed at a low level, trusting Binkly to put his head onto the chopping block]

[bglover]

Partmer. with real values is EXPECTED to double again...

 

A bid by you here of 3h would show game interest (I am of course assuming the 3d bid was weak)... A pass by you here shows minimal opening values (which you have at best with the wasted DQ). Partner is not precluded from acting again... so any action by you shows more than the dead minimum you have.

 

Common bidding error... a good post.

[the hog]

Pass with this pile of rubbish. Pd will x again with a decent hand. 3H certainly shows extras or a decent hand at least.

[Codo]

Hi all,

 

Okay, I am so free to bid like free:

 

3 Heart

 

Even seeing all experts downgrade the hand, I nearly like it:

I have 10 really good working points, a reasonable side suit and two short suits and seven loosers.

Of course this is nothing to get too excited about, but passing will give too much pressure on my pd in the balancing seat. Shall he bid on with any 8 points and 44 in the majors?

Or with ten? What shall he do with something like 4432 or 4441 and some jucky points. So I bid 3 Heart.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[JRG]

Sometimes the hand belongs to the opponents. Tough. Just because one of the opponents "only" overcalled and the other took a preemptive action, doesn't mean it is your hand. If it is your hand, your partner will not pass out 3D.

[keylime]

John, as usual, your sound wisdom appears here. If partner was good enough to make a double, they will be good enough to help steer the auction here.

[inquiry]

Pass. I would compete to 2H's with this hand, but 3D has taken that option away. Partner with "extras" can double again if it is right for us to bid on.

 

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Pass. But not because I dont like 3HE contract :). Reason is if my p have good hand he will bid 4HE probably ( all we like games ::)) and we will lose our 3HE contract :'(.

Misho

[lifemonster]

There are several routes, but 3H here definitely shows extra, or at least a sound opener.

 

pass 3D, waiting pd's 2nd dbl, then bid 3H. This is the weakest and it should be where this hands belongs to.

 

pass 3D, waiting pd's 2nd dbl, then jump to 4H; sounds odd, because logically if you are strong enough you can afford to bid 3H first time.

 

bid 3H, showing "I have extra and I have hearts".

 

bid 4H, showing "I have a lot of extra and I bid what I think I can make".

 

double; this should be competitive showing "I have extra but I don't know what to bid".

 

cuebid 4D; this is the strongest showing either "I know what I'm doing(hopefully); you pick the suit", or "I have other thoughts; after you pick the suit I will move on".

 

and finally...........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THE POWER IS BACK SO I CAN LOG ON TO BBO AGAIN! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sartaj1]

3 Hearts.

Because of competitive auction, i am permitted to stretch one level.

And the hand is not as bad as some of the commentators have made it out to be.

Opposite a perfect minimum, we are odds on to make game.

Kxxx

Kxxx

xx

Qxx

 

Partner may have more than that and pass out 3 diamonds. say, above hand with the spade Ace instead of the king.

[inquiry]

3 Hearts.

Because of competitive auction, i am permitted to stretch one level.

And the hand is not as bad as some of the commentators have made it out to be.

Opposite a perfect minimum, we are odds on to make game.

Kxxx

Kxxx

xx

Qxx

 

Partner may have more than that and pass out 3 diamonds. say, above hand with the spade Ace instead of the king.

 

 

Your "perfect" minimum loses DIAMOND AK, and two black ACES so game is down at least one. Bidding 3H's here a) ignores the general principle of in competition, bidding to the level of your fit (ok, I over bid this too, but I need a reason). And the bad news, is that if you DO bid 3H with this hand and catch the Spade ACE in the wrong hand and opener holding four hearts the JT, you will be doubled, and lose 2S, 1H, 2D, and 1C for -800 and a huge, huge negative swing. 4H -1 undoubled, with tamer distributions, is not all that bad, as they 3 DIAMONDS (losing 2H, 1C, 1S), so -100 versus -110.

 

But the question is, how do you get to 3H opposite the hand you showed? The answer is to pass. Your partner can, and often will, double back in. Then you just bid 3H's.

[Codo]

Hi Ben,

 

1. with Sartajs hand, no sane Pd will raise your 3 Heart bid to 4, if he knows, that you can have a minimum opening.

 

So, if you loose 4 tricks, you just write +140 opps -110 or more agaist 3 Diamond.

 

2. Opener surely has 4 hearts, after all, I opened and I see them, I have exactly 2425.

 

3. Does my rho has 4 Hearts? Doubtful, just if he wants to make me guess with his 3 Diamond bid.

But these things happen.

 

4. Even if someone has 4 Hearts, pd will just bid game with a good hand.

And then, there won`t be 3 aces, and a king missing.

 

5. So yes, I have a big loss, if we bid game with my hand opposite a balanced minimum responder.

This should be no big surprise. With 20 HCPs and two quite balanced hands, your prospects for 10 tricks are seldom golden.

 

I will even loose more, if I bid slam. But who will do so?

 

6. Pd showed 6+ HCPs and at least 4/3 in the majors with his first bid.

You really advocate to repeat this message after

the given auction after pd passed 3 Diamond? Then you will be in trouble with the given hand (4432 8 HCPs) opposite a 3334 or similar "actractive" hand.

This time, you have to pay for -1100 if the suits does not break well and they get you without a fit at the third level.

 

Of course, your style is reasonable. it is always the same: One partner should bid a little more agressivly, the other a little more frightend.

So in yours (and others) style, 3 Heart promises more then in sartais or mine. But in your style, reopener must reopen on nearly every hand, with the slightest excuse to do so, at least at MPs. You believe, that this is good. Fine, do so. I disagree.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[bglover]

I am stunned by the number of posters who believe a 3 level free bid shows no extra values here.

 

My only comment to Free, Codo, Sartaj, etc. is I would love to play vs all of you in a game for money. That would break you of this habit real fast.

[Free]

"If this and if that and if blabla..." then you should never bid a game or slam! In every game you play there can things go wrong. Don't you ever take just a very little risk??? Oh yeah, you want to play for money against me ;D :)

 

I'm not scared to bid 3H after a guy (East) passes and raises NOT VULNERABLE vs VULNERABLE (!!!) to 3D. Partner shows 4+H (and normally 4+S as well), so if he has something extra values we make a game easily.

In my partnership, we don't play ALL general principles because they're not ALL good enough in our opinion. We play 3H minimal in this situation, and as long partner knows that I don't have any problems at all...

[bglover]

That's fine... if you have a special agreement by all means play it.

 

But, I would still love to meet you and your partner for a money game if that is your agreement.

 

You are constantly putting yourself into the position of getting doubled for 300 or 500 when the MOST the opps can make is 140? This is a great risk/reward strategy!

 

Sure, you say 3h shows no extras... that's fine... It is still lousy strategy because you are gonna lose every time the overcaller has a big hand and you are going to only come out ahead in the situation where partner COULD HAVE ACTED had you passed.... and then you aren't really coming out ahead but only even.

 

It is a 100 percent losing proposition at money bridge but I guess at imps, where you aren't risking anything but a bad board you don't care. Well, a bad strategy is a bad strategy no matter what the scoring method in my opinion... and I'd still love to play you for money if you promise to use that same strategy.

 

That hand is garbage unless and until partner can act again.

[inquiry]

Hi Roland,

 

I am not so worried about the 3D bidder having 4H, it is the overcaller who likely is "long in hearts" (I mistakenly called overcaller "opener" in my reply. Let's assume partner has something like 4-4-1-4. That leaves the 3D bidder with at least 3 spades, since overcaller didn't bid 1S. Overcaller also didn't make a takeout double or an bid 2NT, so the 3C bidder is also "marked" with some club legnth. And of course, he rates to have 3 or 4 diamonds (of course I have raised on doubleton honor a few times myself...but partner should be shortish for the negative dbl). All in all, if hearts are not behaving, I think overcaller probably has them. That was the premise in my reply.

 

As for no "SANE" partner raising 3H to 4H with Sartaj's proposed hand? Of course that was the implication in his post for why he bid 3H with the hand so HE COULD get to game opposite that hand. And if my partner bid 3H with and I held that hand, I would surely bid 4H if I was vul at imps.

 

As for reaching game if "partner has a good hand". If partner has a good hand, he will not go quietly if you pass. For one reason, I may have a trap pass hand. That is, I play a dbl by opener here still as takeout. So if partner is short in diamonds (particularily singleton), and much more than a dead minimum, he will bid again. With the hand in question, my partners would double. And I would then bid 3H. Mission accomplished, and no chance for partner taking me for "extras". And if partner's hand is so good that we belong in game? When I bid 3H, he will carry to game.

 

So, to address another issue raised by sartaj1 when he said "Because of competitive auction, i am permitted to stretch one level." I think "stretching" has to be defined, and if stretching is generally allowed, at RED versus WHITE, I would really reexamine this philosphy. There are two reasons why. First, at RED you will STRETCH to reach close games. So if you bid 3H with this hand, your partner is much more likely to carry on to game than if you were not vul. Second, the penatly for being wrong is more harsh if they double you...and going down two undoubled is no prize either.

 

I myself have found that the judicious use of the law of total tricks comes in handy in these situation. And being RED (as this problem is), heavy empahsis on the word judicious. We have a presumed 8 card heart fit (nothing of course is certain, partner might have 5H with 4S, or 4S with 3H). They have a likely 8-9-or-10 card fit in diamonds. I would guess they have a 9 card fit, but against a tricky RHO raising on doubleton honor, partner COULD have 4-4-4-1 hand they are in a 7-2 fit. But I would think on average this is 17 trump hand. I think this hand has CAUTION written all over it.

 

Note to STEVE: A bid not discussed so far in this thread is opener double 3D as "takeout". Of course, this is the bid you would use with a good hand (which this is not) when 3Hearts is bid as "competitive". This takeoutish double is very handy at other vulnerabilities where responder actually has a good hand and some good diamond cards and can make a penatly pass. But even with such a dbl available, this isn't the hand to bid 3H on... IMHO.

 

Ben

[sartaj1]

Kxxx

Kxxx

xx

Qxx

 

i meant we are odds on to make our contract.

(need spade ace onside)

 

 

And if you advocate a 4432 8 count to act again at the 3 level, dream on !

 

As for the delusional comments about playing against players who bid 3H in a money game, i'd love to take you on. The only problem being that bridge matches are often decided by skill rather than philosphy.

A team of better players playing a less effective style/system will routinely beat a team a weaker team that lives on the cutting edge.

 

 

Another comment about raising to game (if partner freely bids 3H) on the same hand sounds like hara-kiri to me. First you make a negative double to show some values and interest in competing in the majors.

Now with the same values and same shape , you raise yourself to game .

[bglover]

>Another comment about raising to game (if partner freely bids 3H) on the same hand sounds like hara-kiri to me. First you make a negative double to show some values and interest in competing in the majors.

Now with the same values and same shape , you raise yourself to game >

 

Tis funny... you make my point for me while telling me in the previous paragraph I (and Ben and Richard and Luis) are wrong....

 

The point is to distinguish between a "bad" opening hand and a "good" opening hand. Passing this sequence when you hold the opener's cards says "P i have minimal values... I can't act." When we elect to bid at the 3 level in this sequence we are saying "Partner, I have a fair hand... make your next decision accordingly."

 

If you want to bid again on the opener's cards based on a negative double by partner (who may well have the worst hand at the table for this sequence) you are the one ready to commit hari kari. The fact that you can't see it is beyond amazement to me, but, then like I said, suckers like you get taken for money all the time.

 

Suggest you try money bridge for a while... I guarantee it will break you of some real bad habits fast. If you think the opener's hand should bid 3h, I know you have at least one, and if this hand is illustrative of your general ability to judge a bridge hand's assets, I would venture to say you may have others... I strongly think you are the one deluding yourself.

[sartaj1]

"Bad habits" havent stopped me winning national events and they are not going to stop my flight next week to an international tournament either.

Sorry, dont have enough time to spare to clean out your local money game. 8)

[the hog]

rofl

;D

[inquiry]

I think the difference of opinion here centers around the phrase "SAYC in Competition". Steve is surely right that a 3H bid here shows extra values in SAYC.

 

Those who practice aggressive law of total trick issues and bid in competition as aggressively as suggest by such authors as Robson/Segal, would play 3H or 3S bid here as a "LAWFUL" bid and purely competitive. I believe this is what sartaj1 is advocating (which BTW, is not really part of SAYC treatment here, but no matter).

 

I actually fall more into the school with sartaj1 on this hand. My 3H and 3S bid don't technically show extra value. I play a double by me over 3D (as opposed to 3H/3S) as takeout (I mentioned this is earlier in this thread). Of course, the dbl shows extra values because partner can pass. So my 3H/3S are most commonly passed.

 

But here is where I disagree with sartaj1. At this vul, the reward (+140 if lucky) versus the risk (-200 not unlikely even if not doubled, and -800 possible) is not worth the bid. If this was matchpoints, maybe you might risk it. But not at imps. Partner sees the vul, he heard my pass, and if it goes (3D)-P-(P) to him, he will balance MANY of the times when it is right to do so, and NEVER balance when it is wrong to do so. Not VUL, I too would bid 3H with this hand.

 

Ben

[bglover]

Well, of coures a double by opener would show extras. But, so would a 3h bid, that is all I have been saying all along.

 

The original post said "what would a 3h bid show in SAYC?" It says, as I have said all along, "partner I have a hand worth competing further with."

 

It may not show a monster... but it shows a better hand than I am holding here... That has been my one and only point all along. OK, obviously some people think this hand is worth competing to 3 level on vulnerable. Frankly, I cannot see why absent further action by partner... the risk/reward just is off, LHO can be holding too many possible hands where I will get doubled and go for a number (as outlined ad nauseaum above),

 

Maybe if I am playing some other system, a 3h bid is fine.... NOT IN SAYC. I am about as bad as I can be here... My hand can improve GREATLY if partner can act. But, now I am repeating myself so...