Full opening rebid vs passed hand

[paulsim]

Hi all

 

pass 1♠

2♥ _?

 

1.- 2♥ is non forcing

2.- Assuming opener will not rebid without full opening values althought it could be a bare minimun (Wrong statement?)

3.- Why most players (I think it is but I may be wrong) disabled forcing & autoforcing when bidding again?

 

This matter a lot playing MP so we don't want to pass 2♥ when we can make 2NT but this maybe a bad approach too.

 

Let say opener bids, ¿we revert to normal scheme or not?

 

a.- 2♠ - Should responder bid again?

 

If any bid under 2NT is forcing for one round we are in standard ground, but if not and I think this is not a very disclosed area, what would mean other opener responses like:

 

b.- 3♠ now with 14+?

c.- 3NT now with good 14+?

d.- 2NT good 12 to bad 14?

e.- 3♣ or 3♦ are still game forcing?

 

 

Ty very much

 

Kind Regards

Paul_S

[sfi]

A good principle is that the passed hand cannot force but must respect opener's forcing bids.

 

If you're playing something that isn't 2/1 game-forcing, then applying this is simple. If 1S-2H; 2S is forcing, then it should still be when responder is a passed hand. That way opener's other bids can keep their same meanings.

 

If 1S-2H is game-forcing, then you need to have some agreement by a passed hand. Maybe 2H is "forcing to 2NT". Now opener can pass 2H but responder can't pass a 2S bid. If you use that criterion to look at your examples:

• a. 2S is forcing.
  
• b. 3S shows a good hand and a good suit, probably the same as an unpassed hand.
  
• c. 3NT is an offer to play but doesn't show a balanced hand or two hearts.
  
• d. 2NT is non-forcing, but remember a bunch of minimum hands would pass 2H. So 2NT should be a real opening just like you suggest.
  
• e. 3C/D should still be game-forcing.
  

 

Other agreements are feasible, so choose one that suits the rest of your system and doesn't require too many changes opposite a passed hand.

[mikeh]

A good principle is that the passed hand cannot force but must respect opener's forcing bids.

 

If you're playing something that isn't 2/1 game-forcing, then applying this is simple. If 1S-2H; 2S is forcing, then it should still be when responder is a passed hand. That way opener's other bids can keep their same meanings.

 

If 1S-2H is game-forcing, then you need to have some agreement by a passed hand. Maybe 2H is "forcing to 2NT". Now opener can pass 2H but responder can't pass a 2S bid. If you use that criterion to look at your examples:

• a. 2S is forcing.
  
• b. 3S shows a good hand and a good suit, probably the same as an unpassed hand.
  
• c. 3NT is an offer to play but doesn't show a balanced hand or two hearts.
  
• d. 2NT is non-forcing, but remember a bunch of minimum hands would pass 2H. So 2NT should be a real opening just like you suggest.
  
• e. 3C/D should still be game-forcing.
  

 

Other agreements are feasible, so choose one that suits the rest of your system and doesn't require too many changes opposite a passed hand.

I very much disagree

 

When responder bids 2H in response to a 3rd or 4th seat 1S, there are some inferences about his hand.

 

Assuming the partnership uses weak two bids in some form (ie responder could have opened 2H or maybe a multi 2D) then there’s something ‘wrong’ for him to have passed. Either he has a very weak suit (yet he has roughly 9-10 hcp for the 2H response) or he has only 5 hearts.

 

So picture opener with 6 spades and 0-1 heart. Is he compelled to pass 2H because 2S is forcing? Note that responder cannot logically have as many as 3 spades since it would be an error to conceal true spade support.

 

In reality, it’s probably best to have an agreement about 2H, such as that it promises 6 hearts and thus a suit too weak for whatever the weak two style is. That may make the call very rare, but that’s fine. 2H by responder as a passed hand is often a very bad idea. Play semi forcing 1N and a gadget such as BART to uncover a heart fit when opener has some extras, in shape or hcp.

 

1S 2H 2S should not, imo, be forcing. All too often, the partnership has minimal values and no fit. KQxxxx void AKx Jxxx

 

Why do I need to pass 2H or put responder in a position where he needs to find a bid over my forcing 2S bid?

[Douglas43]

A lot depends on your core system. If you are playing Acol or similar then 2♥ is just 5 hearts and good 9 to poor 11 hcp. 2♠ rebid is non-forcing (as is 3♥ although with responder so tightly defined it sounds a bit like "you make the last mistake partner"). All other rebids are GF as the weak NT means all balanced hands are 15+.