How do you bid the grand?

[AL78]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak2hak9dak76cak5&e=sqjt85hdqt93cq973]266|100[/hv]

 

This extreme hand came up last week in a club MP session. How would you find one of the four grand slams available (7♣ makes because the clubs break 3-3)? This is the strongest hand I have seen at the club.

[helene_t]

With one partner I play step responses to 2♣, so once responder shows 7-9 points and fives spades to the queen, opener knows enough:

2♣-2♠

2NT-3♥

4NT-5♣

5♦-6♠

7NT

 

It may still be a bit of a gamble since one opp could have four spades to the jack, or responder could have the red jacks instead of ♦Q. But I think it is a reasonable gamble.

[Cyberyeti]

2♣-2♠(nat F4N)

2N-3♣

3♦-4♦

 

Now the big hand knows partner is 5044 and will have ♠Q and almost certainly J to make up a positive, now QJ/QJ can count 13 tricks so can QJ/Q/Q and QJ/Q/J is not a positive so you can bid 7N now.

[DavidKok]

I play Kokish, so we would start

2♣*-2♦* (waiting);

2♥* (Kokish)-2♠* (waiting);

3NT (28-29 balanced, you could upgrade to 30 but I prefer not to since we have to jump to the 4-level to show it)-4♥* (Jacoby transfer);

4♠-?

 

We haven't discussed continuations here. In my partnership 3NT was NF, 4♠ did not promise support, 4NT now would be RKC and higher bids would be controls for spades. I think it is better to play 3NT forcing to 4NT and that the transfer accept shows support. Maybe the West hand should superaccept the transfer with all aces and kings. Anyway, I think East might as well bid 4NT despite the void, since we are missing only 4-5 HCP total.

-4NT;

5♥ (2/5 without the queen)-5NT (kings);

6♠ (all/no kings)-7NT (I can count to 13).

 

 

I think bidding 2♠ over 2♣* is great opposite this hand but a loser most of the time.

[Cyberyeti]

I think bidding 2♠ over 2♣* is great opposite this hand but a loser most of the time.

 

Bidding 2♠ is probably wrong if you play 2♦ waiting but right if you play 2♦ negative as we do.

[pescetom]

I play Kokish, so we would start

2♣*-2♦* (waiting);

2♥* (Kokish)-2♠* (waiting);

3NT (28-29 balanced, you could upgrade to 30 but I prefer not to since we have to jump to the 4-level to show it)-4♥* (Jacoby transfer);

4♠-?

 

We haven't discussed continuations here. In my partnership 3NT was NF, 4♠ did not promise support, 4NT now would be RKC and higher bids would be controls for spades. I think it is better to play 3NT forcing to 4NT and that the transfer accept shows support. Maybe the West hand should superaccept the transfer with all aces and kings. Anyway, I think East might as well bid 4NT despite the void, since we are missing only 4-5 HCP total.

-4NT;

5♥ (2/5 without the queen)-5NT (kings);

6♠ (all/no kings)-7NT (I can count to 13).

 

 

I think bidding 2♠ over 2♣* is great opposite this hand but a loser most of the time.

 

I quote this post almost entirely except for the idea of a superaccept.

Our auction would be a photocopy except we would bid 6NT as the all kings response.

[LBengtsson]

3NT (28-29 balanced, you could upgrade to 30 but I prefer not to...

 

I like the Kokish auction, David, but there's no upgrade with this strong balanced hand. It calculates at 28.75 on K&R evaluator. Opposite a Yarborough you may not even make game so I would have caution and just bid 3NT as you did.

[DavidKok]

I even made a mistake - over 5♥ we use 5♠ as the king asking bid after which 5NT shows none/all, this is safe on this auction. Not relevant this time, but saving space like that can be vital.

 

I've never been a fan of K&R, but I am also not a big fan of upgrading in general.

[mikeh]

I don’t like admitting this, but we’d really struggle with this hand and might well get a very embarrassing result

 

We’d start with 2C 2H….2H denying any control.I think any method using 2H as denying a control or using control showing responses in general (so bidding 2D for them) is a problem

 

Opener can’t bid 2N and for us 3N is defined as ‘to play.

 

For example, pick up Ax AKQJxxx Kx Ax….how would/should this hand be bid?

 

For me, it’s trivial. 2C 2H 3N.

 

 

Opposite no controls, any other bid is silly. 3N is virtually laydown and will be absolutely cold opposite as little as xxxx xx xxxx xxx while no other game makes on optimal defence.

 

What do you suggest responder bid over 3N with the posted hand?

 

Ok, so this hand reveals a flaw in our methods. Frankly, that doesn’t worry me at all.

 

I’ll take a zero at mps or a big loss at imps every time I hold 12 controls as opener and a balanced hand. I’ve played a lot of bridge and it ain’t happened yet. Meanwhile, our methods seem to work ok on the thousands of 2C openers I’ve held over the past 40 years, which is how long I’ve been playing 2H denying a control.

[nullve]

Using the kind of standardish 2/1 system I have tended to play with non-regular partners, maybe

 

2♣(1)-2♦(2)

2♥(3)-2♠(4)

2N(5)-3♥(6)

3♠(7)-4♥(8)

4N(9)-5N(10)

7N(11)-P

 

(1) strong

(2) waiting

(3) Birthright ("Kokish")

(4) waiting

(5) BAL GF

(6) Jacoby transfer

(7) S support

(8) H control, serious slam interest (by failure to bid 3N - Non-Serious), no C or D control

(9) RKC

(10) even number of key cards, some void (which can only be in H)

(11) contract

 

?

[mw64ahw]

Using the following NT structure

• 1♣ 12-14
• 1NT 15-17
• 2♣-x-2NT 22-24
• 2♣-x-3NT 28+
• 2♦-x-2NT 20-21
• 2♦-x-3NT 25-27

and transfers/Kickbo in simulation (not sure how it tuns out in real life) leads to:

2♣-2♦

3NT (28+hcp balanced) - 4♥ (5+♠)

4♠ (3+♠) - 4NT (0/2/4 KCs)

5♣ (K♣) - 5♥ (K♥/void West can extrapolate)

5NT (All KCs no Q♠) - 6♣ (Q♠ & Q♣)

6♦ (K♦) - 7♦ (Q♦)

7NT

[AL78]

Using the following NT structure

• 1♣ 12-14
• 1NT 15-17
• 2♣-x-2NT 22-24
• 2♣-x-3NT 28+
• 2♦-x-2NT 20-21
• 2♦-x-3NT 25-27

and transfers/Kickbo in simulation (not sure how it tuns out in real life) leads to:

2♣-2♦

3NT (28+hcp balanced) - 4♥ (5+♠)

4♠ (3+♠) - 4NT (0/2/4 KCs)

5♣ (K♣) - 5♥ (K♥/void West can extrapolate)

5NT (All KCs no Q♠) - 6♣ (Q♠ & Q♣)

6♦ (K♦) - 7♦ (Q♦)

7NT

 

I'm impressed with a slam bidding sub-system that can extract information about the presence of critical cards down to queens so precisely.

[pescetom]

I'm impressed with a slam bidding sub-system that can extract information about the presence of critical cards down to queens so precisely.

It's basically normal Italian undifferentiated first/second level control-bidding with Turbo, I've been posting examples here for a few years now.

But it wouldn't work in this situation for most Italians, as 4NT with no preceding control-bid would be RKCB, not Turbo. I concede that over a natural 4♠ it might be wise to agree that RKCB is off, though (Duboin and Bocchi even played for several years with no Ace-asking agreements at all, only control bidding, but eventually reinserted RKCB).

[mikeh]

It's basically normal Italian undifferentiated first/second level control-bidding with Turbo, I've been posting examples here for a few years now.

But it wouldn't work in this situation for most Italians as 4NT with no preceding control-bid would be RKCB, not Turbo. I concede that over a natural 4♤ it might be wise to agree that RKCB is off, though (Duboin and Bocchi even played for several years with no Ace-asking agreements at all, only control bidding, but eventually reinserted RKCB).

I’ve long suggested that a good way for intermediate to advanced players to improve their slam bidding would be to stop playing all keycard or ace asking bids for a couple of years. Doing that would force them to learn hand evaluation and cooperative bidding, and make them realize that keycard is way too often abused and unnecessary

 

But at the end of that time, I’d strongly suggest using it again….they’d just find they didn’t use it as a crutch…in my partnerships, we bid a lot of slams without asking for keys and try to use keycard to stay out of slams or to reach grands

 

Unfortunately on the OP hand I’m not at all sure we’d get past 3N!

[Shugart23]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak2hak9dak76cak5&e=sqjt85hdqt93cq973]266|100[/hv]

 

This extreme hand came up last week in a club MP session. How would you find one of the four grand slams available (7♣ makes because the clubs break 3-3)? This is the strongest hand I have seen at the club.

 

Playing precision, open 1C and if partner thinks his hand is worthy of a positive response, he will bid 1H suggesting a game contract in Spades. Opener accepts by bidding 1S which is also an ask about responder's length and how many of top 3 Spades he holds. Responder says 2C showing a 5 card suit headed by the Queen. Opener asks himself where are the other 6+ HCP that Responder claims to have and thinks partner has at least 2 Queens and 4 Jacks OR 3 Queens and 2 Jacks, or all 4 Queens and can count up 13 tricks in any case and bids 7NT and thinks he will make, as long as the Spades break

[Lovera]

I like the Kokish auction, David, but there's no upgrade with this strong balanced hand. It calculates at 28.75 on K&R evaluator. Opposite a Yarborough you may not even make game so I would have caution and just bid 3NT as you did.

 

I too think that the 3NT bid can risolve the situation (than here for answer every Queen is a trick ...).

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak2hak9dak76cak5&e=sqjt85hdqt93cq973&a=1C(ART STR)P1H(TRF 8+HCP 5+S)P1S(RKC)P1N(1 KEY)P7NPPP

]400|400| Jasmine[/hv]

[Gilithin]

I'm impressed with a slam bidding sub-system that can extract information about the presence of critical cards down to queens so precisely.

Are you also impressed when Responder has a Yarborough with 6 spades opposite ♠xx ♥AKQ ♦AKQJ ♣AKQJ and has to play 5♠-1? Only accepting a transfer at the 4 level with 3 card support just seems like a really bad idea. It's great when you can see both hands though...

[mw64ahw]

Are you also impressed when Responder has a Yarborough with 6 spades opposite ♠xx ♥AKQ ♦AKQJ ♣AKQJ and has to play 5♠-1? Only accepting a transfer at the 4 level with 3 card support just seems like a really bad idea. It's great when you can see both hands though...

You play in 4♠ as you don't have the hcp to show 0 keycards or 4NT as partner has the points. Of course you can still go down with a lead from AKQJ♠ if you want to get really freaky. Passing 3NT is also an option as you can't add value

[Gilithin]

You play in 4♠ as you don't have the hcp to show 0 keycards or 4NT as partner has the points. Of course you can still go down with a lead from AKQJ♠ if you want to get really freaky. Passing 3NT is also an option as you can't add value

According to your auction, Opener only bids 4♠ with 3+ spades. So that would appear not to be an option. You do not say what Opener bids with only 2 spades but I would assume it is 4NT. As per the previous post, this just seems like a really bad idea. But perhaps your previous descriptions were just incorrect. Or, as every DD bidder knows, "When I use a bid it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

[johnu]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak2hak9dak76cak5&e=sqjt85hdqt93cq973&a=1C(ART STR)P1H(TRF 8+HCP 5+S)P1S(RKC)P1N(1 KEY)P7NPPP

]400|400| Jasmine[/hv]

 

How can you possibly justify bidding a grand slam auction without checking on aces and kings with Gerber or Blackwood???

[jillybean]

Ah, why check for A and K when you hold all 8 of them.

1♠ here is RKC

[mw64ahw]

According to your auction, Opener only bids 4♠ with 3+ spades. So that would appear not to be an option. You do not say what Opener bids with only 2 spades but I would assume it is 4NT. As per the previous post, this just seems like a really bad idea. But perhaps your previous descriptions were just incorrect. Or, as every DD bidder knows, "When I use a bid it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

Yes you take it to 4NT. Assuming responder is not bidding on nothing (a pass would be more appropriate) 28hcp plus whatever responder has should easily be enough for 4NT

[Gilithin]

Yes you take it to 4NT. Assuming responder is not bidding on nothing (a pass would be more appropriate) 28hcp plus whatever responder has should easily be enough for 4NT

So you pass on the aforementioned Yarborough with 6 spades? Now on the original opening hand you take 8 tricks in 3NT while the field is making 4♠+1. Congratulations! Passing on a hand valuable in spades but useless in NT is also a really bad idea.

[mw64ahw]

So you pass on the aforementioned Yarborough with 6 spades? Now on the original opening hand you take 8 tricks in 3NT while the field is making 4♠+1. Congratulations! Passing on a hand valuable in spades but useless in NT is also a really bad idea.

I'm not sure how the field makes 4♠+1 when ops have the top 5♠. Also while I may pass with 5, 6 is a different matter.

On average you don't expect the extreme hand you are suggesting with opener holding 28hcp