Simple bid

[Al_U_Card]

I voted for 3D. The more I think about it, with only 12 hcp, if I pass what are the likely outcomes? LHO passes and pard, who is unpassed btw, can dbl or bid spades or even clubs (then i can bid 3H to ask for a stopper). Will we get pre-empted out of a game? Not if pard has the values for it. If I act and they jack the pre-empt, pard will act based on my bid, which may cause more harm than good. Pass is looking better and better......

[Guest Jlall]

i believe equal level conversion is assumed when doubling a preempt, since you can jump to show a stronger hand. Also, dbling and bidding your own suit does not show a strong hand. So I always double a heart preempt with this type of hand.

What about leaping michaels? can't have it all. Not to mention if a hand is suitable for Xing and bidding a new suit, that doesnt make it suitable for a jump, which shows a strong long suit and a good hand

[SoTired]

right, leaping michaels means that a simple minor overcall may have a large upper limit. That's it's price. Don't forget you still have the direct q-bid, which reverts to its older rock meaning.

 

I like to reserve the dbl for hands that want to hear from advancer. The X + bid = unsure about support for advancer's suit. Would not dbl without at least 2 in unbid minor or 3 in unbid major.

[bearmum]

I voted for 3♦ as IMO I do not have sufficient to X and then bid diamonds if P bids clubs :)

 

Partner hasn't bid yet and might even be able to either

a. bid spades himself

b. support my diamonds

[Double !]

This, IMO, is a matter of partnership agreement. If playing equal level conversions, then double seems to be reasonable. If not, or if unsure, then 3 diamonds is safer. Partner is going to need either a good fit or some good cards over there to help take care of some of your losers, so chances are P will be able to find a bid over 3D if there's a game to be made. Double is good when lho decides to up the ante by bidding 4 hearts. Matter of what you choose. Interior sequence in diamonds is also good for potentially setting up the diamond suit. :)

[omeroj]

I have a question.

Who vote for 3 ♦ play the lebenshol?

And why you can't play 2♠ in this hand?Only if bid double can play 2 ♠

If your p have 4♠ 4-3-2 with 2♦ will pass on 3♦ and you can go 1 down when can make 2♠.

I repeat that in the italian forum the 90% of votes are for double, in this forum the 42% lol, this is very nice:)))

 

 

Omero

[whereagles]

Double, even if not playing equal level correction (which by the way is a almost a must after preempts).

[omeroj]

Could i know why we can't play 2♠ in this hand?

If you bid 3♦ can't play the spades too if your p have 5♣ 4♠3♥1♦ is very good contract 3♦ with 6-1....

There are 24 votes for 3♦ and i again don't undestand as i can bid 3♦

 

 

I wait your answers...

 

Omero

[Al_U_Card]

Could i know why we can't play 2♠ in this hand?

If you bid 3♦ can't play the spades too if your p have 5♣ 4♠3♥1♦ is very good contract 3♦ with 6-1....

There are 24 votes for 3♦ and i again don't undestand as i can bid 3♦

 

 

I wait your answers...

 

Omero

Since you want to play 2S so badly, you will need pard to have 4S cards and about 11 hcp. If he has that, then pass as he will double to reopen and YOU will bid 2S (or will you bid 3S to show your great passed hand? 2-edged swords cut often and deep B) . )

 

Bidding 3D wins when pard has just about any other hand as both pard and LHO are unpassed. The hand has lots of offense and a nice trump suit in D. Preempts are often indicative of the other major breaking badly so Spades might not be such a sweet deal with a 4-1 break.

[Al_U_Card]

I have a question.

Who vote for 3 ♦ play the lebenshol?

If you play Lebensohl and pard bids 2NT, do you bypass 3C to show your diamonds? if pard is broke with 6C and 4H, 3C may be the place to play.

[mr1303]

Depends on whether I play Equal Level Conversion or not. If not, then I bid 3C after 2NT, and hope that 3C isn't a dreadful contract.

[Guest Jlall]

I don't really understand, does nobody else expect further competition? You are horribly placed if the opponents do bid 3 or 4 hearts. You are horribly placed if partner competes in clubs. On the other hand, you are in great shape if you have bid 3D. You can next bid spades, completing a good description of your hand. If the spades and hearts were reversed and they opened 2S I could certainly understand a X alot more. This may be it for the heart suit. But in this case, if we start with 3D the spade suit is not gone forever unless it goes all pass.

[Free]

3♦, gives me a headstart in describing my hand accurately.

[cherdano]

I don't really understand, does nobody else expect further competition? You are horribly placed if the opponents do bid 3 or 4 hearts. You are horribly placed if partner competes in clubs. On the other hand, you are in great shape if you have bid 3D. You can next bid spades, completing a good description of your hand. If the spades and hearts were reversed and they opened 2S I could certainly understand a X alot more. This may be it for the heart suit. But in this case, if we start with 3D the spade suit is not gone forever unless it goes all pass.

I bid 3♦ for the same reason, but I am not as confident. Balancing 3♠ over 3♥ seems fine, but while I would bid 4♠ over 4♥, I don't feel very good about it. Isn't it an overbid?

 

Arend

 

Edit: P.S.: If you play ELC, I assume you have to agree that after 2♥ X 4♥ P P, bidding 4♠ can show this hand type (two places to play -- with 3 of them, X again, with only spades, bid 3 or 4 spades immediately)?

[omeroj]

if my p have 6♣ i could play too 3 ♣ but play always 3♦ id few....when i can play 2♠ or 3♣, if i bid 3♦ can't find the spades and there are few spaces of bid

 

Omero

[Al_U_Card]

Edit: P.S.: If you play ELC, I assume you have to agree that after 2♥ X 4♥ P P, bidding 4♠ can show this hand type (two places to play -- with 3 of them, X again, with only spades, bid 3 or 4 spades immediately)?

Wow. Playing ELC I would expect that you could still double again to then correct C to D if required. Bidding 4S would show the monster hand with lots of good S. Hands rarely change during the bidding (barring mis-sorting...;-) but information concerning them does tend to increase.....

[omeroj]

Wow. Playing ELC I would expect that you could still double again to then correct C to D if required. Bidding 4S would show the monster hand with lots of good S. Hands rarely change during the bidding (barring mis-sorting...;-) but information concerning them does tend to increase....

 

Well done...if you bid 3♦ opp 4♥ your p can defende with 5♦ or he must bid double with 4 cards of ♠? if he p p you will bid 4♠?

I would listen your opinions about this hand:)

 

Omero

[Al_U_Card]

Wow. Playing ELC I would expect that you could still double again to then correct C to D if required. Bidding 4S would show the monster hand with lots of good S. Hands rarely change during the bidding (barring mis-sorting...;-) but information concerning them does tend to increase....

 

Well done...if you bid 3♦ opp 4♥ your p can defende with 5♦ or he must bid double with 4 cards of ♠? if he p p you will bid 4♠?

I would listen your opinions about this hand:)

 

Omero

The hardest part of bidding is not shaping your bids to reflect your actual hand but rather choosing the call that most accurately shows what you have (under the circumstances). Under the bidding as shown, there is safety in trumps so 3D wins if you choose to overcall. (Pards tend to raise 2S bids in this sequence when they have 3, further interference or not.) A good pard will listen to the bidding (or lack of same) and draw conclusions based on the available information. Get your head out of your hand and into the auction. If you lose the chance to compete further it is likely because you shouldn't. (LHO has a 13 count with a stiff H and 4 S to the K and you will have your hands full playing 3D or even 2S for that matter.)

[Al_U_Card]

A typical situation (ie likely occurance) would be both LHO and pard have 10 counts with their own suit (who has Clubs and who has Spades remains to be seen). When LHO chooses his call, your pard may be disappointed with your hand, as you have promised a good opening hand for your call, and LTC notwithstanding your greatest attribute is the decent 6 card D suit, unless pard has 4+ spades which he will tend to bid if he has D tolerance and his 10 count (looking for game opposite your "good" hand).

[inquiry]

I bid 3♦ for the same reason, but I am not as confident. Balancing 3♠ over 3♥ seems fine, but while I would bid 4♠ over 4♥, I don't feel very good about it. Isn't it an overbid?

 

Arend

 

Edit: P.S.: If you play ELC, I assume you have to agree that after 2♥ X 4♥ P P, bidding 4♠ can show this hand type (two places to play -- with 3 of them, X again, with only spades, bid 3 or 4 spades immediately)?

Well, with two suiter (five spades), leaping michaels is fine. I prefer "liberal leaping michaels" as one of the capelletti's wrote up in bridge world a long time ago. Misho prefers a hybrid thing where you can have 5/6 diamonds and 4♠, something like this hand, but I have never warmed up to that... maybe justin should play with misho as he suggested it here :-)

 

So major minor two suiter is ruled out. You can also rule out a hand with just long spades, because you would overcall in spades.. (2, 3, 4 depending upon stregth.. no preempts versus preempts, so with a GREAT spade one suiter, jump in spades). My authority on this is bridge sense, and also see Robson/Segal rule number one for competitive auctions above. But, and this is key, hands like this with four spades and a long minor are not ruled out when you make a double (well, if you are italian at least).

 

Europeans have been making offshape doubles for long time, as it is the most flexible bid. So over ... (2♥)=DBL=(4♥)=?

 

Most americans will assume doubler has tolerance for both minors, most europeans will not make this assumption (I think). If you play equal level conversion, where y our partner has the right distribution, or spades and diamomnds, you would not bid 5♣ if you had a TOLERANCE for diamonds. You would bid a careful 4NT to show clubs but a diamond tolerance. With support for both minors, simply double 4[he[ for takeout.

 

If you play (as suggested by Robson/Segal) not equal level conversion, but rather you can double with four spades and long in EITHER minor as the most flexible bid, your partner has to take that into account as well. Once again over 4♥ a double by advancer is for takeout to a minor (simply bid spades if you ahve them). And once again, 4NT shows clubs with a tolerance for diamonds. If advancer has diamonds with a tolernace for clubs, he should DOUBLE. And overcaller with both minors bids 4NT to let his partner choose (if he has a notrump hand, he passes 4♥X of course). With only one minor suit, opener bids it over the double.

 

This isn't perfect, but it should work well enough for people who use it. Once you remove the GOSH hands (no jump in suit initially), the "big" (you define bid) two suiter with major and minor (leaping michaels), and "big" minor two suiter (no immediate 4NT), the only two options left are 4-5, 4-6 hands with major minor, and true three suiter (well maybe some very strong balanced hands as well).

 

Is this method best? No idea, but it is surely playable. Over lebenhsohl, after the double, btw, I will rebid 3♦, not 3♣ to show this hand, and I am no worse off than those of you who started with 3♦. But I don't get to play 3♣ when that would have been "right".

[cherdano]

Ben, this seems all right, but I was wondering what MY rebid is if advancer passes. Do you pass 4♥ with the given hand?

 

Arend

[inquiry]

At this vulnerability, yes I would pass 4♥. Certainly I can not under=write a five level contract with this hand.

[omeroj]

At this vulnerability, yes I would pass 4♥. Certainly I can not under=write a five level contract with this hand.

Yes i think that ben is right, i'm sry to see win 3♦ in this hand :P

 

Omero

[omeroj]

Tks for you all...i saw that in the world there are more players that vote 3♦, but i'm happy to see that in the italy the 90% of players vote for double, tks again for your opinions.)

 

Omero

[mr1303]

On the Lebensohl question:

 

How many people play the paradox response here: i.e. would a 3D bid after the double show clubs (worth at least the 4 level) or just a hand with spades and diamonds. We got a bad score the other week when I assumed the first and partner had the second