Doubling 4D below game level as a take-out bid

[arepo24]

I wonder if someone could help with this decision which is interesting

but very daring.

 

My partner had 16 pts. a void in ops D suit and support for other 3 suits.

My P opened 1C and op jumped to 3D (with 7 in the suit) and op's

partner suppoerted with 4D.

My P then Doubles (below game level).

I took it to mean a business X and passed. I had 4 spades and 5 clubs

and a 3 pt. hand (DK)

They made it and we went down to the depths of the 97th floor!!

Should I have bid my Clubs? (which, by the way, went down one at another table)

Thanks for any help if this isn't too confusing for you.

[helene_t]

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Yes that double should be take-out, but it doesn't specifically promise a void in diamonds.

 

Maybe you should bid 4♠ or maybe 5♣, or maybe pass is fine. Depends a bit on how many diamonds you had and where your honours were.

[arepo24]

Thanks Abbess. I only had 3 pts (a King of Diamonds singleton--which was the suit the ops were bidding). I passed because I only had 3 points. Did I do the right thing now that you tell me that my partner's bid was a legitimate take-out and not a business X?

[sfi]

Double is fairly universally played as takeout here. You should not pass because you have a fit for two of the suits partner is showing, no defence and a fairly good offensive hand despite having no useful points. The choice should be between 4S and 5C.

 

The risk of 4S is that it's a 4-3 fit, and your singleton diamond suggests partner might have 2 and you might be forced to consider ruffing in the hand with four spades. The advantages of 4S are that it's a level lower, scores more if it makes and is likely to be a good place to play if you do have a 4-4 fit. At matchpoints I would probably try 4S, but lean more towards 5C at IMPs.

[pescetom]

Worth thinking/asking about agreements too.

What was 1♣ by partner and what would 2♦ by opponent have been?

[P_Marlowe]

Thanks Abbess. I only had 3 pts (a King of Diamonds singleton--which was the suit the ops were bidding). I passed because I only had 3 points. Did I do the right thing now that you tell me that my partner's bid was a legitimate take-out and not a business X?

The X showes strength, and is certainly T/O oriented.

With a single in their suit, you should bid your longest suit, and if this means

you end up at the 5 level, so be it.

The shortage is worth 1-2 tricks, if you play in the long suit of the weaker hand.

Weakness is no reason to pass the bid. If they bid game, passing to hope,

partner can beat it on his is ok, but if they did not bid game, removing is

usually your best shot.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

I would have passed also. Partner could have

[hv=pc=n&n=sa86hak86d32cakj3]133|100[/hv]

and then we hopefully make the right guess between 4♠ and 5♣.

[Huibertus]

[should I have bid my Clubs?]

 

There is only 1 answer to this, "It depends on the partnerships agreement about the meaning of double". Although as someone else mentioned the most common agreement is take out, it is not the only one. Penalty and values are two other potential agreements.

Because this is a high level double the partner doubling needs to make sure his hand is relatively pure with respect to the agreement. In doing so with your hand;

 

- If the agreement is take out, you have to take out partners double on this hand. And yes, the 5 club bid seems to guarantee a fit, 4 spades might be an option too. Partners hand seems in line with this agreement so is fine now. But having this agreement partner should NOT double with let's say a 3325 19HCP count with scattered values or with 4 sure tricks, as you will do the wrong thing.

 

- If the agreement is penalty, you have a clear cut pass, no reason to bid at all. Having this agreement partner should not double on the hand he actually had, nor on a hand with scattered values again if he mixes up the type for a double you'll do the wrong thing.

 

- If the agreement is "values" (I don't like this approach as it is difficult to assess WHAT values he has and what you then should do), you need to assess your had with regards to your own distrubution. The more balance you are, and the higher the double is, the more often you should pass. If this is the agreement and he doubles 4D, your hand is difficult, I would probably consider biding but pass for the lack of a 5 card major or 6 clubs, knowing it might be wrong, should we have the accidental 5/5 fit in clubs or 4/4 in spades. Again if the agreement is values, partner cannot double with a 4405 16 count or a penalty hand.

[dsLawsd]

Take out partner's take out doubles. If you do not have an agreement, then make one.

partner most likely has either 4-4-1-4 or 3-4-1-5 no wasted values. Take out to the suit that looks best for the play which includes forcing by the defense in diamonds.

 

My best guess without good texture in any suit is to bid 4♥!

If partner had two suits he could bid the major or bid 4NT.

Even your second best trump suit might be OK as the maximum choice is likely not available now.

 

Great question for improving high level judgment kind sir.

[pigpenz]

how about posting the hand?

[arepo24]

how about posting the hand?

I will try to get my partner to print his hand here.

Thanks all for your kind and knowledgeable responses.

[arepo24]

Q-J-8-4 ♠️

K-Q-J-4 ❤️

Void ♦️

A-Q-J-9-2 Clubs

[apollo1201]

Q-J-8-4 ♠️

K-Q-J-4 ❤️

Void ♦️

A-Q-J-9-2 Clubs

A textbook hand for X

[bluenikki]

A textbook hand for X

 

Except, of course, that partner is going to pass with a weakish 3=3=4=3.

[HardVector]

Except, of course, that partner is going to pass with a weakish 3=3=4=3.

Rule 1: Take out takeout doubles...unless YOU can beat the contract for a number.

[DavidKok]

Rule 1: Take out takeout doubles...unless YOU can beat the contract for a number.

Rubbish at the 4-level, or even at the 3-level.

[pescetom]

Is it just my software, or is there something unusual about this thread which makes it continually appear as New Content even when already read?

[bluenikki]

Rule 1: Take out takeout doubles...unless YOU can beat the contract for a number.

 

Which 3-card suit do you bid?

 

Partner's suit, I guess, so he can waste the energy.

[blackshoe]

[hv=pc=n&s=s6532h532dkc76543&w=sathat98dt8642ckt&n=sqj84hkqj4dcaqj92&e=sk97h76daqj9753c8&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1c3dp4ddp]399|300[/hv]

One possible layout. Seems like EW have a lot of aces and kings, so NS probably can't make anything. Still, a takeout double is almost forcing, and South doesn't have any defense against diamonds. I'd say he should bid something, probably 4♠ or 5♣.

 

One wonders, if this is the layout, whether West should have bid 5♦ instead of four.

 

I did give South the worst possible spot cards - maybe his spots were better.

[bluenikki]

[hv=pc=n&s=s6532h532dkc76543&w=sathat98dt8642ckt&n=sqj84hkqj4dcaqj92&e=sk97h76daqj9753c8&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1c3dp4ddp]399|300[/hv]

One possible layout. Seems like EW have a lot of aces and kings, so NS probably can't make anything. Still, a takeout double is almost forcing, and South doesn't have any defense against diamonds. I'd say he should bid something, probably 4♠ or 5♣.

 

One wonders, if this is the layout, whether West should have bid 5♦ instead of four.

 

I did give South the worst possible spot cards - maybe his spots were better.

 

I don't understand your point. With this, bidding 5♣ is easy. Passing shouldn't enter anyone's mind. If partner doesn't have their double, not your problem.

 

The problem comes up only when responder has no 5-card suit.