Bid 6 Spades Without Gadgets

[LBengtsson]

I was watching a intermediate/advanced game and this hand appeared. The traveller the next day showed that less than 40% reached 6♠, with one reaching the worse contract of 6NT (-2) at IMPS.

 

For a minute you are not a expert or very advanced and playing with a pick-up partner and are using a basic system such as Vanilla 2/1, SAYC or Acol, and only have Blackwood or Roman Key Blackwood on your convention card, what do you think is the best or right auction to get to 6♠? (Some of the ones that I saw were not good, just gambling.)

 

White vs. Red. IMPS. No opponents bidding. West Dealer.

 

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[smerriman]

Playing 2/1:

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 2♠

 

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.

[LBengtsson]

Playing 2/1:

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 2♠

 

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.

 

Yes, I agree it is easy with 2/1 but many players outside USA do not play this system, and many older intermediate players still play SAYC style even if they come from USA. I guess on intermediate/advanced random games I see less than 20% play 2/1.

[smerriman]

With SAYC East jumps to 3♠ (forcing) instead of 2♠, after which you should reach the same spot.

[johnu]

I'm having difficulties imagining an auction that doesn't end up in at least 6♠. Assuming the pair plays RKC, then they should be able to stop in 6♠. Without RKC, I suppose they might end up in 7♠.

 

Maybe they might stop in game if East responds 1NT instead of 2♦ since this is an intermediate/advanced game. Otherwise, it is 100% West's problem for not reaching slam unless East goes completely off the rails.

[mw64ahw]

Playing 2/1:

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 2♠

 

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.

I don't disagree with the auction, but how many hcp do you need to bid 2♦ in 2/1?

[apollo1201]

Without gadget at all

 

1S - 2D

2H - 4S (minimum with fit)

6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I can’t ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)

[DavidKok]

I don't disagree with the auction, but how many hcp do you need to bid 2♦ in 2/1?

An opening hand, though be wary bidding 2/1 with shapely 10-point hands since partner likely also has a shapely minimum with the shape going in the other direction. This hand more than qualifies. In 2/1 the alternatives are also not good, you'd have to bid 1NT (either forcing or semiforcing) after which partner will never play you for this great hand.

 

Without gadget at all

 

1S - 2D

2H - 4S (minimum with fit)

6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I can’t ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)

I would never double jump like that in 2/1. Also a jump should show a hand extremely unsuitable for slam, not just any HCP minimum. With two aces, room to set up the diamond suit and ruffing value this hand will make a very good dummy in slam.

[AL78]

With SAYC East jumps to 3♠ (forcing) instead of 2♠, after which you should reach the same spot.

 

3♠ is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3♠ here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

[mw64ahw]

An opening hand, though be wary bidding 2/1 with shapely 10-point hands since partner likely also has a shapely minimum with the shape going in the other direction. This hand more than qualifies. In 2/1 the alternatives are also not good, you'd have to bid 1NT (either forcing or semiforcing) after which partner will never play you for this great hand.

 

I would never double jump like that in 2/1. Also a jump should show a hand extremely unsuitable for slam, not just any HCP minimum. With two aces, room to set up the diamond suit and ruffing value this hand will make a very good dummy in slam.

For me SAYC is 11+ and 2/1 13+ hcp shaving a point off in certain circumstances. In this case 12+ is justified given the 8 card fit. In general though do you want to arrive at 3NT after a GF on a misfit with less than 24hcp between you.

 

I would make the double-jump in this case; it describes the strength and support opposite a minimum opener. If partner has the strength to move ahead as in this case then I move ahead.

[mw64ahw]

3♠ is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3♠ here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

Given 2♠ can be invitational, why not have 3♠ as SI, but I guess it depends which way round you want to play.

[johnu]

Without gadget at all

 

1S - 2D

2H - 4S (minimum with fit)

6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I can’t ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)

Not addressing the 4♠ rebid by responder, surely you can bid regular 4NT Blackwood, and sign off in 5♠ if you are missing 2 aces.

[DavidKok]

For me SAYC is 11+ and 2/1 13+ hcp shaving a point off in certain circumstances. In this case 12+ is justified given the 8 card fit. In general though do you want to arrive at 3NT after a GF on a misfit with less than 24hcp between you.

 

I would make the double-jump in this case; it describes the strength and support opposite a minimum opener. If partner has the strength to move ahead as in this case then I move ahead.

Both of these are mistakes. The first line is too much bean counting. In 2/1 you have to choose between showing a limited hand with 1NT (or a jump to 3m if appropriate), or starting a GF. Hands with ~12 HCP have to be judged on their own merits, but frequently I'd rather overbid and have a comfortable 2/1 auction than underbid and have to catch up for multiple rounds. Also, if you have a bit of shape, 24 HCP 3NT bids have a tendency of making (at least a sufficiently large percentage of the time). It is also not writ in stone that partner has a minimum. Meanwhile you need to move heaven and earth to get to game with a balanced 13 opposite your 1NT bid - it's just poor odds.

 

The double jump is ridiculous, we have an excellent hand for slam and we're eating two levels of bidding space. Partner doesn't even know our shape yet! I would consider jumping to 4♠ with something like ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦KQJxx, ♣KJx, but not many other hands.

[helene_t]

3♠ is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3♠ here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

In Acol this is usually played as invitational, but in SAYC, 2♦ already showed a hand that at least wants to invite opposite a 12-14 bal (in some interpretations of SAYC it even promises a GF opposite a 12-14 bal), so even if 3♠ just shows a tiny bit of extras, it must be GF.

[P_Marlowe]

3♠ is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3♠ here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

Facing a 2/1 response, it is forcing, the 3S bid showes 15+, the 2/1 showes 10+. hence the partnership has 25+.

And even in Acol, it should be forcing.

[AL78]

Facing a 2/1 response, it is forcing, the 3S bid showes 15+, the 2/1 showes 10+. hence the partnership has 25+.

And even in Acol, it should be forcing.

 

Yes I understand that a jump rebid by opener opposite 2/1 is game forcing. I was referring to the auction:

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 3♠

 

which I play as invitational in Acol and 5CM without 2/1 GF.

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 2♠

 

is a minimum 2/1 giving preference. Opener can bid on with a better than minimum hand.

[Stephen Tu]

In SA the jump preference by responder after a 2/1 has always been GF. SA has historically always had a lot more forcing sequences than Acol.

 

Invitational spade raises in SA are either jump raise immediately (1s-3s) once limit raises were adopted (in ancient times jump raise was forcing), or just give a 2/1 followed by a non-jump preference. Or go through 1nt forcing if that is available.

 

 

[mw64ahw]

Both of these are mistakes. The first line is too much bean counting. In 2/1 you have to choose between showing a limited hand with 1NT (or a jump to 3m if appropriate), or starting a GF. Hands with ~12 HCP have to be judged on their own merits, but frequently I'd rather overbid and have a comfortable 2/1 auction than underbid and have to catch up for multiple rounds. Also, if you have a bit of shape, 24 HCP 3NT bids have a tendency of making (at least a sufficiently large percentage of the time). It is also not writ in stone that partner has a minimum. Meanwhile you need to move heaven and earth to get to game with a balanced 13 opposite your 1NT bid - it's just poor odds.

 

The double jump is ridiculous, we have an excellent hand for slam and we're eating two levels of bidding space. Partner doesn't even know our shape yet! I would consider jumping to 4♠ with something like ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦KQJxx, ♣KJx, but not many other hands.

You have to have some guidelines to start and then adjust according to experience, but with 24 combined hcp I think the probability of a 3NT game slips below 50℅. When you have say a running suit where extra tricks can be counted then experience shows you can shave the odd point. I struggle with partners that make a light GF with a good suit and we end up in 3NT on a misfit going down when going via 1NT ends in a makeable contract. Even with 24+ there is still the challenge of the play.

 

As to the double-jump; I find a lot of club players make this bid when gadget-less which is the case here and the smart openers will move on to the slam. With a partner who is comfortable with cue-bidding and knows that a 3♠ rebid by opener is a SI then you can take the slow route.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

[pescetom]

Yes I understand that a jump rebid by opener opposite 2/1 is game forcing. I was referring to the auction:

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 3♠

 

which I play as invitational in Acol and 5CM without 2/1 GF.

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 2♠

 

is a minimum 2/1 giving preference. Opener can bid on with a better than minimum hand.

 

That is what I understood in my limited exposure to Acol. And is the same in Italian 4-card majors.

[Winstonm]

I was watching a intermediate/advanced game and this hand appeared. The traveller the next day showed that less than 40% reached 6♠, with one reaching the worse contract of 6NT (-2) at IMPS.

 

For a minute you are not a expert or very advanced and playing with a pick-up partner and are using a basic system such as Vanilla 2/1, SAYC or Acol, and only have Blackwood or Roman Key Blackwood on your convention card, what do you think is the best or right auction to get to 6♠? (Some of the ones that I saw were not good, just gambling.)

 

White vs. Red. IMPS. No opponents bidding. West Dealer.

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sak8764hakj3d6ck9&e=s952h5daqj84caj75]266|100[/hv]

1s-2d

2h-2s

3c-3D

3h-4C

4D-4h

4nt-5h

6s

[apollo1201]

The double jump is ridiculous, we have an excellent hand for slam and we're eating two levels of bidding space. Partner doesn't even know our shape yet! I would consider jumping to 4♠ with something like ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦KQJxx, ♣KJx, but not many other hands.

Sorry, should have said, it is not a 2/1gf sequence. If you have no bidding gadget (KC, eg), you would not play 2/1, I guess.

 

In that context, 2S should show a tolerance for S, no H fit, no repeatable D, and no stopper in C, and a non gf hand, sth like

 

Qx

Qxx

AKxxx

xxx

 

Where the 2D bid stuck you (while it is an easy 1NT bid in 2/1).

 

Then 3S the big forcing rase and 4S remains for those « min » gf hands (strength, poor trump support, etc).

 

Of course in 2/1 you can take your time (and that is why it is often said that 2/1 is actually easier, I guess, as you’ve already said you are playing game).

[pescetom]

I was watching a intermediate/advanced game and this hand appeared. The traveller the next day showed that less than 40% reached 6♠, with one reaching the worse contract of 6NT (-2) at IMPS.

 

For a minute you are not a expert or very advanced and playing with a pick-up partner and are using a basic system such as Vanilla 2/1, SAYC or Acol, and only have Blackwood or Roman Key Blackwood on your convention card, what do you think is the best or right auction to get to 6♠? (Some of the ones that I saw were not good, just gambling.)

 

I think several people here are overthinking this problem, or not being realistic about what one can expect from a pickup partner in an I/A game.

 

Say partner promises to play "2/1" and you have no further opportunity to discuss. It has to start 1♠ 2♦ 2♥. Now 4♠ is almost certain to kill the auction. Yes 2♠ is legitimate given the game force and distribution, but given what you already know do you really want to get into the awkward and poorly standardized followups to that, rather than simply bid 3♠, which clearly says "we will play spades and I have some interest in slam"? Now an optimistic advanced partner might make some kind of control-bid, anyone else is going to bid 4NT with reply 2 keycards which leads to slam.

 

What you would bid with your regular or ideal partner is academic here and quite likely to place you in the 60% that missed the obvious slam, IMO.

[thepossum]

Out of my depth in the wrong forum but if any basic system (plus Blackwood - not strictly necessary) can't reach 6S on a reasonable number of tables its time to find another system. Maybe that explains why I'm still learning the complexities of the game. I guess there is the risk of missing a better score. If partner shows any kind of game force followed by enough for 4S (especially via jump) explore slam immediately of just bid 6

[Gilithin]

Without any gadgets at all? 2♠ - 6♠ seems to get the job done. Easy life.