trap pass advice in Precision

[Shugart23]

If Opponents overcall our strong 1C opening, say with 1H, Partner will pass with 0-4 HCP OR interest in penalty because of points and Heart defense capability ( a trap pass) Partner will double to show 5-7 HCP and no Stop and Partner will bid 1NT with 5-7 with a Stop.

 

With this agreement, bidding goes, 1C-(1H) -Pass -Pass- and now Opener Doubles on behalf of the partner, which Partner takes off if it wasn't a trap pass. I guess the problem with this is suppose the Opener has good hearts and wants to Double for penalty, I guess he is stuck and has to Pass.

 

Can anyone comment on perhaps what might be a better agreement against a low-level overcall over strong 1C where partner either has opponents suit or a bust hand )0-7) Thank you

[mycroft]

That's pretty standard Precision.

 

1♣-(1♥)-p-p to you with 18 high and hearts - do you really think that you're making 1♥ out of your hand, on defence, with your points (at least in trumps) under declarer? And if NV, you're making 2♥ - because +100 doesn't beat +110/+120? Now if partner gives you "a card or two" - 5-8 HCP - it becomes so much easier, doesn't it?

 

Frankly, if 1♥ goes down - either because they psyched it or because it's just an awful hand - "a plus score is average +". If it makes, -80 is much better than -160, especially at MPs. The worry I have is that they totally psyched it, you *both* have hearts, and -200/400 scores badly against +420/620. But you aren't doubling hoping to catch a trap pass with that hand anyway. Sometimes psyches work (still remember the -1100, all vul, I had against 1♣-1NT-X-AP. Almost a zero against 6♠= across the room...)

 

Again, I might be the Last Bridge Pessimist, but my good-but-not-great hands opposite a known bust Play Badly. Strong NTs opposite a bust go for 800, at least as often as weak NTs doubled do.

 

Sure, it's arguable you could swap pass and double the way the strong 2♣ players do - but now you get 1♣-(1♥)-X (0-4)-p and you're in the same boat, except you can't pass and hope to survive. The strong 2♣ players either have a single suit which will play even opposite the ultra-negative, or they float the overcall with the 2NT hand expecting it to go down - they're one or two tricks stronger, and the opponents are one level higher, of course.

[Shugart23]

That's pretty standard Precision.

 

1♣-(1♥)-p-p to you with 18 high and hearts - do you really think that you're making 1♥ out of your hand, on defence, with your points (at least in trumps) under declarer? Now if partner gives you "a card or two" - 5-8 HCP - it becomes so much easier, doesn't it?

 

Frankly, if 1♥ goes down - either because they psyched it or because it's just an awful hand - "a plus score is average +". If it makes, -80 is much better than -160, especially at MPs.

 

Again, I might be the Last Bridge Pessimist, but my good-but-not-great hands opposite a known bust Play Badly. Strong NTs opposite a bust go for 800, at least as often as weak NTs doubled do.

 

Sure, it's arguable you could swap pass and double the way the strong 2♣ players do - but now you get 1♣-(1♥)-X (0-4)-p and you're in the same boat, except you can't pass and hope to survive. The strong 2♣ players either have a single suit which will play even opposite the ultra-negative, or they float the overcall with the 2NT hand expecting it to go down - they're one or two tricks stronger, and the opponents are one level higher, of course.

 

 

Thanks much..I really wanted to confirm that what I am doing and advising my new partner makes sense

[Shugart23]

Thanks much..I really wanted to confirm that what I am doing and advising my new partner makes sense

 

How high up in the bidding would you suggest we go before the Opener's double is no longer a trap pass but for penalty ?

 

e.g 1C-2S-P-P -double.....trap pass or penalty?

[mycroft]

My old notes had double at the two level as 6-8 or so, and "general game force" 3-level or higher. Note that I haven't played Precision seriously in 10 years or so...

 

I'd play takeout pretty much the same level I'd play negative doubles opposite a natural 1♣, and rely on responder to convert as desired. That's one place where rubber (to my almost entirely theoretical knowledge) is different from duplicate - those 800s when you get them are great, but it's no longer "okay" to get 300 or 500 into game the way it is in rubber.

 

However, at least in a long match, or against regular opponents, there is a definite incentive to saw off their interference early, even if it doesn't quite work, to put them on notice that "we penalize BS." But I still would prefer to go after the 200s/300s in partscore hands than the 800s into game, at least at MPs - they pay off more often.

 

On the other other hand, a commenter on Another Site frequently brings up the "Meckwell's results when 1♣ is interfered with is better than when the opponents pass, because they can visualize the hands better." To which my response is frequently "yeah, and if I could play as well as Meckwell, it might be for me, too", but the argument holds - it's not always a great idea to convince them to stay out of your strong Club auctions.

 

You also have to work out what responder's calls mean when they do their "fancy garbage" - Suction, psycho-Suction, wonder bids, transfers,... even Mathe. I mean, I don't find this worth too much worrying about, because my belief is strongly "be able to get to 2M or 3m, when it's safe, before opener's rebid" is more important than "confuse the opponents" - but they will play them, even more than over 1NT.

[straube]

Double is better as takeout than 5-7 any; pass with 0-4 or 5-7 awkward. Not sure why so many like 1N as 5-7 with a stopper; it frequently wrongsides the contract and then you have to decide how to force and invite after responder has bid it.

 

A 1H overcall is low enough interference that you can play systems on and pretty much ignore their bid.

[foobar]

Not sure why so many like 1N as 5-7 with a stopper; it frequently wrongsides the contract and then you have to decide how to force and invite after responder has bid it.

SCAMP uses the 1N/2N as 5-7 in conjunction with transfers over 1M/2M. Perhaps, Nick can talk more about the experience with it, and specific follow-ups

[helene_t]

I think I prefer the 1nt freebie to be gf. If 1H is a psyche or they are in a 5-0 fit we can still afford to defend undoubled with 17+6 points. But at unfavourable it may be too risky to trap with a gf hand. Then just bid 1nt with a 5card hearts

[PrecisionL]

Roy Hughes (Building a Bidding System, 2005) recommends X as balanced (6+ hcp with or without a stopper) and uses transfers as weak, GI, or GF.

 

I have been trying that design in practice on BBO.

 

For example: ColoursFirst DESIGN: [LPL: 1♠ overcall is an ideal example!]

 

1♣ (1♠): Pass Weak or length in ♠ (Trap pass)

X Values with or without a stopper = balanced

1NT Transfer to ♣ 5

⁺

hcp

Opener accepts if min &

xx

2♣ Transfer to

♦

5

⁺

hcp

Opener accepts if min &

xx

2

♦

Transfer to

♥

5

⁺

hcp

Opener accepts if min &

xx

2

♥

1

=4=4=4

2♠ Minors

2NT ♣ +

♥

3♣

♦

+

♥

3

♦

GF ♣

3

♥

GF ♣ + 0-1♠ 1-U splinter

3♠ AKQxxx+ any suit

3NT Minimum GF with all strength in opp suit