Question about KK Relay's Denial Cue Bidding

[Cascade]

However, the problem raised in this thread is that even at the end of the auction, there will still be two or more threads it "could be", and I'm expected to know which one it is *based on the cards I hold*. Which the opponents are not entitled to. They are, however, entitled to know what the options are, so that when they see dummy, they can also work out which cards I hold that allowed me to disambiguate in the auction. And that becomes very difficult.

 

Occasionally, one or both opponents may know what partner has before the relayer knows.

[Bad_Wolf]

I only very occasionally play relay these days and of course it is a pain if the opps ask about every bid, but there is a flip side. Once playing a relay pair RHO showed balanced no major then 2353 then LHO signed off in 3NT. It was obvious to me, based partly on feel/tempo, that LHO had 5 spades. Sure enough he did and pard lead one. Now everyone says that "well you relay an extra round to hide this" and so on, which is true in theory but not so much in practice, especially if there is any time pressure. Now I would have liked to ask for clarification of each bid of course, but of course I couldn't.

[akwoo]

And then there was that round (this really happened!) where on both boards, relayer ended up as dummy, so we knew pretty much exactly what declarer had. Of course we had to try to take full advantage as defenders. We did not finish that round anywhere close to on time.

[Nirmalya]

As a learner of KK Relay (Just started after reading the book) I am not so much worried about alerts and explanation.

However I have some basic questions to clear my doubt. I am sure many of you here can help me.

Take this example hand

♠AK10xx

♥Jxx

♦xxx

♣xx

 

♠QJxx

♥-

♦AKJ10

♣AKJ104

 

Asker starts DCB after resolving the shape and finding out three controls with partner. Partner stops at first step and again stops at first step in response to the second ask.

How can asker find out now, whether ♠ AK is missing or not?

[dokoko]

The KK Relay book describes a series of shortcuts when doing Denial Cue Bidding. For example, after you've communicated the Aces and Kings in your hand, you skip any remaining suits and begin scanning the Queens. The assumption is that your partner can infer all your Aces and Kings from their own hand and your control point total, so no need to continue.

 

How are you supposed to alert these bids in a game?

 

I think a practical solution would be to explain the agreement during the bidding, eg.

one of:

- ♠A+♣K, no ♠Q

- ♠K+♣A, no ♠Q

- ♠K+♣K, no ♥K (hence ♦K)

(if opp accepts the explanation could be reduced to "showing where his controls are - details later")

 

and explaining the cards actually shown when the bidding is over (for the opening lead).

 

I am no law expert and I don't practice relay systems but this seems to be a practical solution where everyone should be happy. If at the table both sides don't agree on the correct disclosure process, call the director and follow his instructions.

 

I don't think it would be fair to hide information available to the asker from the opening leader, but I can't imagine a situation where the precise information would be needed by the opponents during the auction.

[dokoko]

As a learner of KK Relay (Just started after reading the book) I am not so much worried about alerts and explanation.

However I have some basic questions to clear my doubt. I am sure many of you here can help me.

Take this example hand

♠AK10xx

♥Jxx

♦xxx

♣xx

 

♠QJxx

♥-

♦AKJ10

♣AKJ104

 

Asker starts DCB after resolving the shape and finding out three controls with partner. Partner stops at first step and again stops at first step in response to the second ask.

How can asker find out now, whether ♠ AK is missing or not?

 

I have not read the book, so what I am going to say is just my guess.

 

I think with your example hand you need some kind of keycard asking bid (or some kind of exclusion or shortness bid by relayer). In general it is assumed that a hand open in two suits cannot be interested in slam but if short in one of those suits there has to be a solution.

[steve2005]

The memory load for KK relay is significantly lower than other symmetric relay systems. I picked up in 2 days. Others i was never able to remember.

Highly recommend despite it being "non-optimal"

[foobar]

The memory load for KK relay is significantly lower than other symmetric relay systems. I picked up in 2 days. Others i was never able to remember.

Highly recommend despite it being "non-optimal"

I don't recall the specifics right now, but my recollection from reading it a year+ ago is that it was ~symmetric relay with the short-legged, long legged, single suited with H/M/L shortness. Was there a particular tweak that helped with the mnemonic ease vis-a-vis other symmetric schemes?