how should we have bid this

[sceptic]

thx Ben, I was beginning to think that I had totally lost the plot on this one

 

I really did not think 3 hearts was an option as I thought it showed extra values

[P_Marlowe]

Mike, instead of arguing with you here, I will provide an example given by Mike Lawrence(this Mike will be more convincing than me I hope:)):

 

W N E S

p 1D 2C ?

 

as south you hold:

 

S:JT73

H:KJ7642

D:3

C:K5

 

This is the hand you SHOULD dbl first then rebid 3H if pd rebids his diamond. This is NOT forcing.

 

 

 

 

Reference: Contested auction by Lawrence, page 92.

Hi,

 

the main difference is probably, that a bid of 3H is

nonforcing, the last to speak was partner.

 

Since I normally play NFB, I will not argue, what is

standard, I would say, if the 3H bid was made, after

opps spoke last and if we are not in a forcing pass

situation, i.e. 3H would be a "free bid", than a 3H

should be forcing, but as I said, I do not play it regular,

so standard may say differently.

 

Marlowe

[mike777]

Mike, instead of arguing with you here, I will provide an example given by Mike Lawrence(this Mike will be more convincing than me I hope:)):

 

W N  E  S

p 1D 2C ?

 

as south you hold:

 

S:JT73

H:KJ7642

D:3

C:K5

 

This is the hand you SHOULD dbl first then rebid 3H if pd rebids his diamond. This is NOT forcing.

 

 

 

 

Reference: Contested auction by Lawrence, page 92.

HMM, exactly what is the full and complete auction that Mike L says we should x and rebid 3H nonforcing?

[HeartA]

IMO west should pass the 3C raise by South.

 

After a 2/1, any double is penalty here, or, at least showing extras (reverse).

 

With his 11 count, west can happily pass (forcing, after a 2/1) and let east bid.

 

However, as soon as east shows hearts, west should reevaluate his hand to GF.

Totally agree.

 

I also agree with Hongjun that East better bid 2♠ if EW didn't play NFB.

[han]

Couple of points:

 

- I also don't like the 2♠ bid. Dbl describes the hand a lot better, and you can still bid ♠s afterwards to show 5-4 and keep the cuebid available in most situations. Also Dbl and bidding on is stronger than this sequence (if west doesn't dbl).

- Don't like the Dbl, it's imo penalty since there's no other useful meaning.

- 3♥ after that Dbl is 95% forcing imo. Only with a huge misfit and no ♣ stopper you're allowed to pass.

 

Seems to me like East chose to start with a more difficult approach to describe his hand, which lead to misunderstandings...

I disagree with everything you say here. Really everything.

[han]

Ben, I would expect something like Jx AQxx AQJxx xx for the double of 3C. A decent hand, no known fit, tolerance for spades, length in the unbid suit. With the given hand I would pass (minimal, no spade tolerance).

[luke warm]

my view is, playing standard, both 2♠ and 3♥ are forcing... playing standard, double *then* 3♥ would be at best invitational.. but that's just me, and is another reason i prefer nfb

[inquiry]

Ben, I would expect something like Jx AQxx AQJxx xx for the double of 3C. A decent hand, no known fit, tolerance for spades, length in the unbid suit. With the given hand I would pass (minimal, no spade tolerance).

Your partner may be sitting over ther with a club stack (or at least clubs and spades). If you pass, that it is it. The hand will end in 3♣ as your partner can not double (that would be takeout). Here with hearts and diamonds, i feel obligated to make the double, crappy hand not withstanding. If parnter makes a minimum call, ok, enough. He will know the double just shows heart, diamonds, short club, no spade support.. .hey, that is what I got.

 

Clearly few agree with this approach (read other replies). Equally clearly if you pass with this hand, your partner will either bid 3♥ and you will bid 4, or he will dbl and you will bid 3♥ and he will bid 4. So on this hand, what ever you do should work. The problem is when RHO got cute with 2 card raise and partner has four clubs and doubleont heart. Now a double by you would have talught them a valuable lesson.

 

Ben

[the hog]

Dbl rather than bidding 2S is completely wrong and shortsighted. What do you do if pd rebid 3D? You cannot bid 3S in that case 3S is nonforcing.

 

What is wrong with 2S? You can always rebid 3H to show 5-4 majors.

 

IN the given auction, opener's dbl is wrong. No matter what it is, this hand should not dbl. Dbl to show heart is particularly wrong. The reason is simple. If pd has heart suit, then he has game force hand and he will always bid it.

 

I see nothing wrong with responder's 3H. New suit is always GF. After all, 2S showed 10+. Opener should raise to 4H with the hand. This is actually a very good hand, good control, lots of ruffing power.

Is it just completely wrong? By who's authority pray tell, Fly. The fact is that reponder's double is a FAR better call than 2S, as 1) your are not laying emphasis on a not so great S suit and 2) you are informing opener about 2 features of your hand rather than one. I totally agree with Free's earlier post.

[luke warm]

this is confusing me.. ok, let's stick to standard bidding (no negative free bids)... now then, 2♠ is obviously forcing, right? if it is, it seems to me that 3♥ would have to be

 

again, in standard, if 2♠ then 3♥ is forcing, how do you show spades and/or hearts and *not* force? it seems to me it has to start with a negative double... after all, if i wanted to force (standard, remember?) i'd bid my suit(s) freely

[Winstonm]

I really don't like opening anemic diamond suits when holding 4H and being forced to rebid diamonds over 1S. So.....

 

P-1C-1S-P

2D-P-2H-P

4H-P-P-P

 

Seems a reasonable alternative.

 

WinstonM

[Echognome]

When 3 suits have been bid naturally, I thought double was penalty except for by agreement (such as snapdragon). Yes we may lose out on the occasional penalty but how often are we going to collect a lot from clubs on this auction. Second, if double by my hand is penalties, then pass is forcing! Then it stands to reason that p's double would be penalties else he can takeout himself. Thus, on the actual deal I would pass (nothing extra to say) and wait until partner bids 3♥ which I can now raise to 4.

[badderzboy]

I've read the discussions with interest, the problem for West is he does not know how strong East is and I would take 3♥ as pass or correct to 3♠ showing a weakish hand at least 5-4 in the majors and a club shortage i.e. just competing for the part score.

 

East has a number of options over 2♣ , neg.dbl (4/4+ in majors) or a suit bid which I play as a negative free bid so 2♠ here for me is passable i.e. just competing the part-score.

 

What would 3♣ mean over 2♣ here, I would assume it sets a force and asks West to describe his hand further so West can bid 3♥ showing the 4♥'s, if West bids 3♦, East can bid 3♠ showing 5 Spades and so on.

 

Steve

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

thinking longer about the problem, there did arise a new

question for me:

Does 3H in the original sequence promises a 4 card suit?

My first inclination was to say yes, but this is probably false,

because, what would you bid with

 

KQT73

AT7

KQ2

T9

 

Now there is no discussion about the 2S bid, its forcing,

the suit is nice, but raising 3D to 4D cant be the true way.

 

Marlowe

[flytoox]

Dbl rather than bidding 2S is completely wrong and shortsighted. What do you do if pd rebid 3D? You cannot bid 3S in that case 3S is nonforcing.

 

What is wrong with 2S? You can always rebid 3H to show 5-4 majors.

 

IN the given auction, opener's dbl is wrong. No matter what it is, this hand should not dbl. Dbl to show heart is particularly wrong. The reason is simple. If pd has heart suit, then he has game force hand and he will always bid it.

 

I see nothing wrong with responder's 3H. New suit is always GF. After all, 2S showed 10+. Opener should raise to 4H with the hand. This is actually a very good hand, good control, lots of ruffing power.

Is it just completely wrong? By who's authority pray tell, Fly. The fact is that reponder's double is a FAR better call than 2S, as 1) your are not laying emphasis on a not so great S suit and 2) you are informing opener about 2 features of your hand rather than one. I totally agree with Free's earlier post.

1) By the authority of LOGIC. As I said clearly in the previous post. Dbl then rebid 3M shows a hand not strong enough to force to game.

 

If you think you should start with dbl. Please tell me what do you do with the hand I gave above, holding 4S6H and about 8-9HCP.

 

2) By the authority of Lawrence. I also gave the reference above. Please chcek them out.

[flytoox]

I really don't like opening anemic diamond suits when holding 4H and being forced to rebid diamonds over 1S. So.....

 

P-1C-1S-P

2D-P-2H-P

4H-P-P-P

 

Seems a reasonable alternative.

 

WinstonM

This is a different story.

[flytoox]

this is confusing me.. ok, let's stick to standard bidding (no negative free bids)... now then, 2♠ is obviously forcing, right? if it is, it seems to me that 3♥ would have to be

 

again, in standard, if 2♠ then 3♥ is forcing, how do you show spades and/or hearts and *not* force? it seems to me it has to start with a negative double... after all, if i wanted to force (standard, remember?) i'd bid my suit(s) freely

Jimmy, 2S then 3H is 100% forcing. I strongly suggest you to get a copy of Lawrence's complete book on contested auction, rather than reading some apparently misleading post here.

 

I can even buy you a copy if you have any doubt. But you have to pay me double if you find it is really great:)

[flytoox]

Hi,

 

thinking longer about the problem, there did arise a new

question for me:

Does 3H in the original sequence promises a 4 card suit?

My first inclination was to say yes, but this is probably false,

because, what would you bid with

 

KQT73

AT7

KQ2

T9

 

Now there is no discussion about the 2S bid, its forcing,

the suit is nice, but raising 3D to 4D cant be the true way.

 

Marlowe

This is a good question. If opener has 4 heart suit, he can raise 3H to 4H, no matter what 3H is. If responder has only 3 hearts, he can still decide to play a 4-3 fit 4H, or return to 5D.

 

With the hand you gave, you should start with 2S. If LHO raise to 3C and pd pass, and RHO pass too, you can double to show the hand. If pd doulbed 3C and it is takeout(I dont know what it Should be, but without discussion I think you should play it as penalty), you can rebid 3D. This should be forcing.

[mr1303]

Lets have a look at the auction:

 

Both opponents are bidding clubs here. Since we hold 2, the chances of partner having a club stack is approaching zero, unless LHO has psyched, which seems unlikely. So I fail to see how passing here will give us problems. I don't have any problems with double being take-out, but this isn't the hand for it. Something like:

 

Ax

Kxxx

AKxxxx

x

 

would be a better bid, showing a shortage in clubs and tolerance for all other suits. It should also show extras.

 

I also feel that double should be take-out from the other side of the table. E.g holding:

 

Kxxxx

Axxx

Kxx

x

 

With the actual hand, the spade support is greatly lacking to make a take-out double here.

[luke warm]

this is confusing me.. ok, let's stick to standard bidding (no negative free bids)... now then, 2♠ is obviously forcing, right? if it is, it seems to me that 3♥ would have to be

 

again, in standard, if 2♠ then 3♥ is forcing, how do you show spades and/or hearts and *not* force? it seems to me it has to start with a negative double... after all, if i wanted to force (standard, remember?) i'd bid my suit(s) freely

Jimmy, 2S then 3H is 100% forcing. I strongly suggest you to get a copy of Lawrence's complete book on contested auction, rather than reading some apparently misleading post here.

 

I can even buy you a copy if you have any doubt. But you have to pay me double if you find it is really great:)

hongjun, i agree with you... as a matter of fact, my first post in this thread says that... without nfb, 2s and 3h have to be forcing... now *if* they're forcing, there has to be some way to bid that *doesn't* show a force..

 

edit: btw, i have that particular book

[inquiry]

Let's compare some auctions, and discussion options for the meaning of openers double of 3♣...

 

Auction one...

 

1D (Pass) 1S (3C)

DBL

 

Auction two

1D (2C) Pass (3C)

DBL

 

Auction three

1D (Pass) Pass 3C

DBL

 

Auction Four

1D (2C) 2S (3C)

DBL

 

 

One option is double is for penalty. This is easy if you agree all doubles above 2♠ are for penalty. I suspect few play this way.

 

One option is double is for takeout in all cases. This is easy if you agree to the basic principle all doubles are for takeut until a fit is found. BTW, I consider snapdragon a takeout double.... call it what every you like...

 

What other optons exist? I have seen support doubles played even at the three level, so that would be a possibility in auction one. I don't think this is a good strategy however.

 

There is the so called "action double" which shows unclear direction, extra values, and at least two card in the suit they bid. Action doubles are very useful at times when you have a hand that doesn't fall into the takeout or penalty range.

 

I prefer to play all four of these as takeout. What is the "problem" with using them as takeout? The problem people will mention is what if you have a club stack and want to make a penalty double? The answer is in that case, you pass. If your partner is short in their suit, he will reopen with a double and you make a penalty pass. So when you are stacked in clubs (and they bid clubs), you can reliably count on your partner being short in their suit. This means when the bidding comes around to your partner, he must make a takeout double if he is short in their suit (in case you are "stacked" there).

 

So now we come to the time to compare the auctions... and the options.

 

Auction one

Penalty double -- you go them with no support for partner

Action double -- you show extra value, a few clubs, no heart support

takeout double -- shows diamonds and spades, and here (since partner can be very weak, extra values as you are focing a bid at the three level).

 

If you play penalty double and your diamonds are not rebiddable and you lack heart support, you must pass even with some good hands. Furthermore if your passs, I assume your partners doubles would also be penatly, so you can miss some easy competiting contracts often. If you play action doubles, as long as you have two clubs, you can double anytime you have extra values and no fit. Pass otherwise. Takeout double, with penalty double hand you pass and await your partners reopening doulbe (hopefully). With shortness and no support you rebid your suit or double with support for the fourth suit.

 

Auction Four is identical to one, EXCEPT, there if you have the penalty double kind of hand, you can surely pass because after your partners 2♠ call he will not pass out 3♣ as a reopening (expecially given his certain shortness in clubs) is mandatory. Action doubles also work very well on this auction, and if you have a partner who will agree to play them, this is an ideal place to put them in.

 

Auction 2 and 3 are dangerous doubles and must show tremendous extra values. I use these as TAKEOUT as as well. An action double here might make more sense if it shows a lot of quick tricks and a couple of clubs.

 

But this brings us back to the hand in this poll. You hold barely an opening hand:

x K9xx Axxxxx Ax

 

On the auction 1D (pass) 1S (3C) , I would pass with this hand. Sure I have a long diamond suit and four card heart suit. But partner didn't promise much with 1♠ and lack of fit and lack of hcp urge prudence. Also if partner happens to ahve clubs, they will be poorly located in front ofthe club bidder, and he might be disappointed in my trick taking ablility if I make a takeout double and he passes with some legnth is clubs.

 

On the auction 1D (2C) 2S (3C), I double readily with this hand. The reason is now partner has shown considerable values with his "forcing" 2♠. So I double here for takeout to show my hearts and lack of spade fit. Action doubles would be ok on this hand too, but then you would have to pass with this hand. Such a pass would convey just the right message (lack of extra values == because 1. No suit bid, and 2. No action double). The advantage of the takout double here is if parnter is short in teh red suits and has some club honors, they are now BEHIND the club overcaller and he can convert to penalty. We don't have a lot, but what we do have is fairly prime. We can also probably mangage a spade ruff as partner will have entry on this auction if he passes 3♣X.

 

So, I feel like after the "forcing" 2♠ free bid, a takeout double is mandatory with four cards in the heart suit and no spade fit. This double implies, also, long diamonds (since I am willing for partner to bid diamonds if he lacks sufficient heart support).

 

Ben

 

On the auction 1D (

[inquiry]

When 3 suits have been bid naturally, I thought double was penalty except for by agreement (such as snapdragon).

Just so everyone knows, a snapdragon double is when your LHO opens, partner overcalls and next hand bids a third suit.. something like this

 

(1S) - 2S - (2D) - DBL

 

This double shows heart suit and at least club tolerance. There is really no need for fancy names like snapdragon, responsive, negative... they are all takeout double. Here you want to takeout diamonds, the only unbid suit is hearts. If you were soley interested in hearts, you could just bid 2♥..so the double also means you are willing to hear partner bid 3♣.

 

But ok, back to the issue of after three suits have been bid, double must be for penalty concept. I refer you to the excellent text by Robson/Segal on Partnership bidding at bridge.

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=skqt5h643d7caqjt8]133|100|

South  WEST  NORTH  EAST

1♣     DBL    1♥    3♦

  ?

 

They recommend DBL along with explaination (see page 185-186)

 

This example is immediately followed by several more (page 186) where double after three suits are bid are for takeout.[/hv]

 

You may not agree with the use of double after three s uits still as takeout, but if you never have considered the possibility, it might be worth reading chapter five of the Segal/Robson book to see how it is played.

 

Ben

[flytoox]

Let's compare some auctions, and discussion options for the meaning of openers double of 3♣...

 

Auction one...

 

1D (Pass) 1S (3C)

DBL

 

Auction two

1D (2C) Pass (3C)

DBL

 

Auction three

1D (Pass) Pass 3C

DBL

 

Auction Four

1D (2C) 2S (3C)

DBL

 

 

One option is double is for penalty. This is easy if you agree all doubles above 2♠ are for penalty. I suspect few play this way.

 

One option is double is for takeout in all cases. This is easy if you agree to the basic principle all doubles are for takeut until a fit is found. BTW, I consider snapdragon a takeout double.... call it what every you like...

 

What other optons exist? I have seen support doubles played even at the three level, so that would be a possibility in auction one. I don't think this is a good strategy however.

 

There is the so called "action double" which shows unclear direction, extra values, and at least two card in the suit they bid. Action doubles are very useful at times when you have a hand that doesn't fall into the takeout or penalty range.

 

I prefer to play all four of these as takeout. What is the "problem" with using them as takeout? The problem people will mention is what if you have a club stack and want to make a penalty double? The answer is in that case, you pass. If your partner is short in their suit, he will reopen with a double and you make a penalty pass. So when you are stacked in clubs (and they bid clubs), you can reliably count on your partner being short in their suit. This means when the bidding comes around to your partner, he must make a takeout double if he is short in their suit (in case you are "stacked" there).

 

So now we come to the time to compare the auctions... and the options.

 

Auction one

Penalty double -- you go them with no support for partner

Action double -- you show extra value, a few clubs, no heart support

takeout double -- shows diamonds and spades, and here (since partner can be very weak, extra values as you are focing a bid at the three level).

 

If you play penalty double and your diamonds are not rebiddable and you lack heart support, you must pass even with some good hands. Furthermore if your passs, I assume your partners doubles would also be penatly, so you can miss some easy competiting contracts often. If you play action doubles, as long as you have two clubs, you can double anytime you have extra values and no fit. Pass otherwise. Takeout double, with penalty double hand you pass and await your partners reopening doulbe (hopefully). With shortness and no support you rebid your suit or double with support for the fourth suit.

 

Auction Four is identical to one, EXCEPT, there if you have the penalty double kind of hand, you can surely pass because after your partners 2♠ call he will not pass out 3♣ as a reopening (expecially given his certain shortness in clubs) is mandatory. Action doubles also work very well on this auction, and if you have a partner who will agree to play them, this is an ideal place to put them in.

 

Auction 2 and 3 are dangerous doubles and must show tremendous extra values. I use these as TAKEOUT as as well. An action double here might make more sense if it shows a lot of quick tricks and a couple of clubs.

 

But this brings us back to the hand in this poll. You hold barely an opening hand:

x K9xx Axxxxx Ax

 

On the auction 1D (pass) 1S (3C) , I would pass with this hand. Sure I have a long diamond suit and four card heart suit. But partner didn't promise much with 1♠ and lack of fit and lack of hcp urge prudence. Also if partner happens to ahve clubs, they will be poorly located in front ofthe club bidder, and he might be disappointed in my trick taking ablility if I make a takeout double and he passes with some legnth is clubs.

 

On the auction 1D (2C) 2S (3C), I double readily with this hand. The reason is now partner has shown considerable values with his "forcing" 2♠. So I double here for takeout to show my hearts and lack of spade fit. Action doubles would be ok on this hand too, but then you would have to pass with this hand. Such a pass would convey just the right message (lack of extra values == because 1. No suit bid, and 2. No action double). The advantage of the takout double here is if parnter is short in teh red suits and has some club honors, they are now BEHIND the club overcaller and he can convert to penalty. We don't have a lot, but what we do have is fairly prime. We can also probably mangage a spade ruff as partner will have entry on this auction if he passes 3♣X.

 

So, I feel like after the "forcing" 2♠ free bid, a takeout double is mandatory with four cards in the heart suit and no spade fit. This double implies, also, long diamonds (since I am willing for partner to bid diamonds if he lacks sufficient heart support).

 

Ben

 

On the auction 1D (

Ben, I agree with you that in sequence 2,3,4 dbl should be played as for T/O. However, in the sequence 1, I am not sure it is so too. They didnot show a fit and I am sitting behind. Why should I play it for takeout? You might say if you want to dbl pd can always reopen with double. But that will put lots of pressure on pd when he holds some boring hand.

 

 

Auction 3 is actually quite different. In this sequence, RHO's 3C shows a good hand and good suit. So there is no reason to think we can set 3C. They could even have a game.

 

In auction 4, I have no strong feeling. The advantage of playing takeout dbl here is you can show the heart suit before LHO reraise to 4/5C. Otherwise, pd can always bid out his heart suit. The minus is you cannot dbl with a hand like X,Kxx,AKxxx,Axxx. I dont mind defending 3CX with this misfit hand.

[luke warm]

Let's compare some auctions, and discussion options for the meaning of openers double of 3♣...

 

Auction one...

 

1D (Pass) 1S (3C)

DBL

 

Auction two

1D (2C) Pass (3C)

DBL

 

Auction three

1D (Pass) Pass 3C

DBL

 

Auction Four

1D (2C) 2S (3C)

DBL

auction 1 i'd play as primarily penalties... partner can now make a decision, knowing i have decent clubs...

 

auction 2 i'd play as takeout with a good hand

 

auction 3, ditto

 

on auction 4 i'd play the double as probably 4 hearts and 3 spades... with the hand fly showed (X,Kxx,AKxxx,Axxx) i don't have a problem passing

 

i hope none of this contradicts anything i've said elsewhere :D