how should we have bid this

[sceptic]

[hv=d=s&v=a&n=saqj5h3dt87ckj762&w=s9hk942da96532ca3&e=skt873haqt7dkjcq9&s=s642hj865dq4ct854]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     Pass

 1♦    2♣    2♠    3♣

 Dbl   Pass  3♥    Pass

 Pass  Pass  

 

I opened a Diamond, can I have comments on bidding please

 

we missed game

[luke warm]

couple of things here... i assume you don't play negative free bids, so the 2s bid was forcing.. my view is, so was the 3h bid.. i don't know how your partnership views 'new suit by an unpassed responder' in a competitive auction

[sceptic]

the part I was more interested in was

 

1/. should I have raised 3 hearts (which you answered)

 

2/. should p with that hand just bid 4 hearts after my x

[pbleighton]

"1/. should I have raised 3 hearts (which you answered)

 

2/. should p with that hand just bid 4 hearts after my x"

 

Yes and yes.

 

You could have also bid 3H yourself, rather than double.

 

Peter

[mr1303]

What was the double there?

 

Can't see any logical meaning other than penalties on this auction, and you don't have a penalty double.

 

It looked as though partner thought 3H was forcing (which it is)

[the hog]

The double is pointless and does not describe the hand, it should be penalty. I actually prefer a X by East rather than the 2S bid. The S suit is not that good and the the X is far more descriptive. Incidentally in the given auction, 3H is forcing.

[kgr]

I play that this DBL is info. If you play that DBL is info-dbl then I expect West to have something like:

2=4=5=2 or 2=4=6=1

Is 3♥ by East still forcing if DBL by West is info dbl?

(can West dbl with correct distribution and minimum values?)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I prefer a neg. X instead of the 2S bid, for the simple reason,

that you suggest both mayors, instead of only the spades

 

You should have raised 3H to 4H, you are playing IMP,

you have controlls and fit.

 

The double is undefined, probbaly optional, card

showing, so for my taste your hand is to weak, to make

this double.

 

Marlowe

[flytoox]

Dbl rather than bidding 2S is completely wrong and shortsighted. What do you do if pd rebid 3D? You cannot bid 3S in that case 3S is nonforcing.

 

What is wrong with 2S? You can always rebid 3H to show 5-4 majors.

 

IN the given auction, opener's dbl is wrong. No matter what it is, this hand should not dbl. Dbl to show heart is particularly wrong. The reason is simple. If pd has heart suit, then he has game force hand and he will always bid it.

 

I see nothing wrong with responder's 3H. New suit is always GF. After all, 2S showed 10+. Opener should raise to 4H with the hand. This is actually a very good hand, good control, lots of ruffing power.

[Chamaco]

IMO west should pass the 3C raise by South.

 

After a 2/1, any double is penalty here, or, at least showing extras (reverse).

 

With his 11 count, west can happily pass (forcing, after a 2/1) and let east bid.

 

However, as soon as east shows hearts, west should reevaluate his hand to GF.

[P_Marlowe]

Dbl rather than bidding 2S is completely wrong and shortsighted. What do you do if pd rebid 3D? You cannot bid 3S in that case 3S is nonforcing.

 

What is wrong with 2S? You can always rebid 3H to show 5-4 majors.

 

IN the given auction, opener's dbl is wrong. No matter what it is, this hand should not dbl. Dbl to show heart is particularly wrong. The reason is simple. If pd has heart suit, then he has game force hand and he will always bid it.

 

I see nothing wrong with responder's 3H. New suit is always GF. After all, 2S showed 10+. Opener should raise to 4H with the hand. This is actually a very good hand, good control, lots of ruffing power.

Hi,

 

I suppose, it is a matter of style.

 

I play negative free bids, so I am forced by system

to double, and I am used to the problems you are

describing.

 

I would still double even in the case, when I had a forcing

2S bid available, because 2S should show a stronger suit,

at least for me.

Actually the suit quality is my main reason, why I would

vote against 2S.

 

If the opponents pass, partner will bid 2D, if 2C gets

raised to 3C, partner can pass.

If he still bids 3D, at least I know, the suit is good.

I can now easily bid 3H as values, aiming for 3NT,

giving partner the chance to bid 4H, 3S, 3NT, ...

whatever.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Free]

Couple of points:

 

- I also don't like the 2♠ bid. Dbl describes the hand a lot better, and you can still bid ♠s afterwards to show 5-4 and keep the cuebid available in most situations. Also Dbl and bidding on is stronger than this sequence (if west doesn't dbl).

- Don't like the Dbl, it's imo penalty since there's no other useful meaning.

- 3♥ after that Dbl is 95% forcing imo. Only with a huge misfit and no ♣ stopper you're allowed to pass.

 

Seems to me like East chose to start with a more difficult approach to describe his hand, which lead to misunderstandings...

[helene_t]

Assuming you play forcing freebids, East can't double with such a strong hand since first double and then 3♠ would be nonforcing (hence the term negative dbl). At least that was what I thought. I'm surprised to read that several posters here would have doubled. Maybe I misunderstood negative doubles completely?

 

I have really no idea what West's double is suposed to show. Maybe a GF hand with diamonds, so that 3♦ could be nonforcing?

[flytoox]

Dbl rather than bidding 2S is completely wrong and shortsighted. What do you do if pd rebid 3D? You cannot bid 3S in that case 3S is nonforcing.

 

What is wrong with 2S? You can always rebid 3H to show 5-4 majors.

 

IN the given auction, opener's dbl is wrong. No matter what it is, this hand should not dbl. Dbl to show heart is particularly wrong. The reason is simple. If pd has heart suit, then he has game force hand and he will always bid it.

 

I see nothing wrong with responder's 3H. New suit is always GF. After all, 2S showed 10+. Opener should raise to 4H with the hand. This is actually a very good hand, good control, lots of ruffing power.

Hi,

 

I suppose, it is a matter of style.

 

I play negative free bids, so I am forced by system

to double, and I am used to the problems you are

describing.

 

I would still double even in the case, when I had a forcing

2S bid available, because 2S should show a stronger suit,

at least for me.

Actually the suit quality is my main reason, why I would

vote against 2S.

 

If the opponents pass, partner will bid 2D, if 2C gets

raised to 3C, partner can pass.

If he still bids 3D, at least I know, the suit is good.

I can now easily bid 3H as values, aiming for 3NT,

giving partner the chance to bid 4H, 3S, 3NT, ...

whatever.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

HI, Marlowe,

If playing NFB, then I agree with dbl first. BUT if playing std, then dbl first is clearly wrong. As dbl then rebid a major suit at three level is NOT forcing.

My post is to those play std method yet still think dbling first by east is better bridge.

[flytoox]

Seems to me like East chose to start with a more difficult approach to describe his hand, which lead to misunderstandings...

Totally disagree Free.

[P_Marlowe]

HI, Marlowe,

If playing NFB, then I agree with dbl first. BUT if playing std, then dbl first is clearly wrong. As dbl then rebid a major suit at three level is NOT forcing.

My post is to those play std method yet still think dbling first by east is better bridge.

Hi,

 

the question is, if 3H in the sequence

 

Pass

1D - 2C - X - 3C

Pass - Pass - 3H - ...

 

is forcing or not, assuming, the partnership

is playing std

 

3H is certainly constructive, but forcing ???

If it is passable, than one needs to double

again, ..., oh well.

 

Also necessary to consider is, does the partnership

play responsive dbl, but this discussion does not belong

in this section of the forum.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

QUOTE HI, Marlowe,

If playing NFB, then I agree with dbl first. BUT if playing std, then dbl first is clearly wrong. As dbl then rebid a major suit at three level is NOT forcing.

My post is to those play std method yet still think dbling first by east is better bridge.

 

 

What?!

 

In standard if you x and rebid 3s it is not forcing? Partner can be void and bidding 3s is not forcing? Since when is a freely bid new suit at the 3 level not forcing in standard?

 

Wayne, all I can do is say if this is standard, when we play please please never never pass a new suit freely bid by me at the 3 level in this type of auction or my 2club openers. I will take all the blame. Thank you in advance.

[fifee]

sceptic wrote:

West North East South

 

-    -    -    Pass

1♦    2♣    2♠    3♣

Dbl  Pass  3♥    Pass

Pass  Pass 

 

I opened a Diamond, can I have comments on bidding please

 

we missed game

 

Sceptic, do you and your partner have agreements that double by you is negative, penalty, showing extras or ?

 

And do you have agreements that in competition, new suit by unpassed responder is forcing one round? Apparently, your partner assumed this and you did not.

 

BTW, Chamaco, 2/1 is off in competition for most partnerships.

 

I miss the penaltyish doubles :D

[mr1303]

Unless playing NFBs to start with a negative double on this hand is very wrong.

 

If partner has a good hand, knowing that partner is 5-4 in the majors could well be important, and playing in the right strain may well be vital.

 

Unless of course partner will pass 3H when I bid that after 2S, in which case I want to stop playing with this partner

[flytoox]

QUOTE HI, Marlowe,

If playing NFB, then I agree with dbl first. BUT if playing std, then dbl first is clearly wrong. As dbl then rebid a major suit at three level is NOT forcing.

My post is to those play std method yet still think dbling first by east is better bridge.

 

 

What?!

 

In standard if you x and rebid 3s it is not forcing? Partner can be void and bidding 3s is not forcing? Since when is a freely bid new suit at the 3 level not forcing in standard?

 

Wayne, all I can do is say if this is standard, when we play please please never never pass a new suit freely bid by me at the 3 level in this type of auction or my 2club openers. I will take all the blame. Thank you in advance.

Yes, if playing std and you dbl then bid 3M, it is Not forcing.

 

If you think it is forcing, please tell me why you didnot start with 2M.

[mike777]

QUOTE HI, Marlowe,

If playing NFB, then I agree with dbl first. BUT if playing std, then dbl first is clearly wrong. As dbl then rebid a major suit at three level is NOT forcing.

My post is to those play std method yet still think dbling first by east is better bridge.

 

 

What?!

 

In standard if you x and rebid 3s it is not forcing? Partner can be void and bidding 3s is not forcing? Since when is a freely bid new suit at the 3 level not forcing in standard?

 

Wayne, all I can do is say if this is standard, when we play please please never never pass a new suit freely bid by me at the 3 level in this type of auction or my 2club openers. I will take all the blame. Thank you in advance.

Yes, if playing std and you dbl then bid 3M, it is Not forcing.

 

If you think it is forcing, please tell me why you didnot start with 2M.

I start with X on this hand example playing standard or NFB.

 

I do not mind playing 3nt even if we have 5-3 spade fit on many hands.

[inquiry]

I think the double of 3♣ is fine. In fact, that is what I would have bid. The question is how do you bid WITHOUT a KNOWN FIT?

 

Until a fit has been found (or totally ruled out), doubles are for takeout. Partner bid 2♠, so he hasn't shown support for diamonds. If I had spade support I would raise. So, we have not found a fit.

 

Over 3♣, I can pass, but since I am short in clubs, and since I am long in the red suits I will double. This says, no spade fit (i would not double here with spade fit), so it shows interest in hearts, but a hand not strong enough to bid a game forcing 3♥. (I am amazed some are willing to bid 3♥ here with this pitiful hand).

 

I do not rebid 3♦ here, which I play as forcing, because I do have interest in hearts. Note, double for takeout by me, caters to partner (sitting behind the club overcaller) of converting to penalty. If I had a club stack, I would pass 3♣ and wait for the reopening double... as then partner will be short in clubs.

 

Since my hand is not strong enough to force with 3♥, and since partner has enough to be in game, without slam ambition on otherwise misfit, and he has minimum game values, a leap to 4♥ is correct. I don't play 3♥ here as forcing, but it is very close to forcing. For those of you who consider it a "new" suit, remember, the double was for takeout, so partner might be under some mild pressure to find a bid... this is quite different auctions where you do not double.

 

Ben

[flytoox]

QUOTE HI, Marlowe,

If playing NFB, then I agree with dbl first. BUT if playing std, then dbl first is clearly wrong. As dbl then rebid a major suit at three level is NOT forcing.

My post is to those play std method yet still think dbling first by east is better bridge.

 

 

What?!

 

In standard if you x and rebid 3s it is not forcing? Partner can be void and bidding 3s is not forcing? Since when is a freely bid new suit at the 3 level not forcing in standard?

 

Wayne, all I can do is say if this is standard, when we play please please never never pass a new suit freely bid by me at the 3 level in this type of auction or my 2club openers. I will take all the blame. Thank you in advance.

Yes, if playing std and you dbl then bid 3M, it is Not forcing.

 

If you think it is forcing, please tell me why you didnot start with 2M.

I start with X on this hand example playing standard or NFB.

 

I do not mind playing 3nt even if we have 5-3 spade fit on many hands.

Mike, instead of arguing with you here, I will provide an example given by Mike Lawrence(this Mike will be more convincing than me I hope:)):

 

W N E S

p 1D 2C ?

 

as south you hold:

 

S:JT73

H:KJ7642

D:3

C:K5

 

This is the hand you SHOULD dbl first then rebid 3H if pd rebids his diamond. This is NOT forcing.

 

 

 

 

Reference: Contested auction by Lawrence, page 92.

[flytoox]

I am quite shocked to see so many good players here saying east's 2S is wrong. Here I will give another similar hand from Lawrence's contested book.

 

 

W N E S

P 1D 2C ?

 

You hold:

S:AK652

H:KT863

D:K4

C:4

 

The right bid is 2S then follows with heart. If you dbl here, then you will get in trouble if pd rebid 2D or 3D.

 

See the same book, page 99.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[sceptic]

I will take all the blame. Thank you in advance. 

 

 

:D