Do you think there is merit in this?

[pilun]

 

I have the system in BBOAlert via Full Disclosure, so didn't have to type much.

A bit slow at 2 minutes per board but that's a youtube issue. I was twice as fast bidding.

I did this simply with [Windows][G] in Windows 10. I bid the hands on one computer, kibitzed on another.

[foobar]

This is coming from the choir, but it seems like a commendable start. A couple of areas for improvement might be adding an audio track, with possibly a video inlay. Also, an explanation of the methods might help those not so dyed in the wool in symmetric.

 

On the flip side, the suggestions might be not worth the time and effort, given the niche audience.

[pescetom]

This is coming from the choir, but it seems like a commendable start. A couple of areas for improvement might be adding an audio track, with possibly a video inlay. Also, an explanation of the methods might help those not so dyed in the wool in symmetric.

 

On the flip side, the suggestions might be not worth the time and effort, given the niche audience.

Some of us are curious even though having no experience with relay. Still a niche, but at least grateful for explanation :)

[hrothgar]

Back in the day, Roy Kerr created a program called Bridge2Symmetric

 

Would be nice to see something like this get revived once more

[foobar]

Some of us are curious even though having no experience with relay. Still a niche, but at least grateful for explanation :)

This is an interesting point. Symmetric relay is one of the best bidding inventions ever, and it's a pity that so few people are aware of it.

 

Nick,

 

One idea might be be create an introductory video that lays out the principles behind symmetric relay (short-legged, long-legged, reverser, QPs, DCB, etc.), then walk through how it maps to SCAMP.

[foobar]

Back in the day, Roy Kerr created a program called Bridge2Symmetric

 

Would be nice to see something like this get revived once more

I still have my copy :D.

[steve2005]

6N better and safer.

6♠ could fail if hearts 4-1 and there is a ruff

[pescetom]

This is an interesting point. Symmetric relay is one of the best bidding inventions ever, and it's a pity that so few people are aware of it.

 

Nick,

 

One idea might be be create an introductory video that lays out the principles behind symmetric relay (short-legged, long-legged, reverser, QPs, DCB, etc.), then walk through how it maps to SCAMP.

 

I read the original description of Symmetric relay years ago and was impressed, but unfortunately that was it. A video laying out the principles of the original system and then SCAMP would be great, both for understanding and as bait to entice a partner to take the plunge.

[pilun]

6N better and safer.

6♠ could fail if hearts 4-1 and there is a ruff

 

Unfortunately - through the vagaries of relay - South got the notrumps in first.

[hrothgar]

For anyone who cares, here are some written notes on learning Symmetric Relay

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qh2upur3egs9x14/Introduction%20to%20Symmetric%20Relay.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cxspnqzuzs86qe3/Resolving%20Shape.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lffup88gqjop43y/Advanced%20Topics.pdf?dl=0

[PrecisionL]

Back in the day, Roy Kerr created a program called Bridge2Symmetric

 

Would be nice to see something like this get revived once more

 

I have that program on my old laptop. :)

[foobar]

For anyone who cares, here are some written notes on learning Symmetric Relay

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qh2upur3egs9x14/Introduction%20to%20Symmetric%20Relay.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cxspnqzuzs86qe3/Resolving%20Shape.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lffup88gqjop43y/Advanced%20Topics.pdf?dl=0

 

Also, Andrei Sharko's excellent primer on the topic: https://www.pagat.com/docs/SymmetricRelay.pdf

[pilun]

This is an interesting point. Symmetric relay is one of the best bidding inventions ever, and it's a pity that so few people are aware of it.

 

Nick,

 

One idea might be be create an introductory video that lays out the principles behind symmetric relay (short-legged, long-legged, reverser, QPs, DCB, etc.), then walk through how it maps to SCAMP.

 

Sounds a bit much like hard work. As you know Atul, the idea of the book is to make symmetric accessible.

Other than BBO movies, this is as far as I will go:

 

Most of the structures

Relaying to slam

 

Again the problem is compatibility. Everyone has their own tweaks.

"High or low shortage first?" "Zoom with 1-suiters, or 2-suiters with clubs, or ..?" "Is 5332 1-suited or balanced?"

By and large, the balanced hand structures are not symmetric and everyone's is different.

Then there are the GF responses to 1♣, a mass of good but random variations.

Not to mention those who use 1♦ positive, 1♠ DN.

 

This last point was crucial for me. Whether or not it is slightly better than the traditional, the added complexity is off-putting if the aim is to attract a wider audience.

[enigmisto]

What is the best published book on symmetric relay? Is there any current software for practicing it?

[foobar]

What is the best published book on symmetric relay? Is there any current software for practicing it?

See the resources mentioned above (Sharko, Richard). Kit Woolsey published a book called KK Relay (see the BridgeWinners shop). In the past, I would have recommended the excellent b2sym for software, but perhaps, it's best to line up a like-minded partner, and practice using a BBO teaching table (using the resources mentioned above).

 

This forum is an excellent resource if it clicks, and there are specific questions.

[foobar]

Sounds a bit much like hard work. As you know Atul, the idea of the book is to make symmetric accessible.

...

 

Again the problem is compatibility. Everyone has their own tweaks.

"High or low shortage first?" "Zoom with 1-suiters, or 2-suiters with clubs, or ..?" "Is 5332 1-suited or balanced?"

By and large, the balanced hand structures are not symmetric and everyone's is different.

Then there are the GF responses to 1♣, a mass of good but random variations.

Not to mention those who use 1♦ positive, 1♠ DN.

 

Very valid points, Nick. FWIW, the OCP (Precision variant) has a fairly large following, and part of their success is that they have a weekly teaching table with voice chat, where they look at strong club auctions. We have enough quorum here to try to setup something similar if it's worthwhile.

 

Regarding the 1D positive tweak etc, many if us we are guilty of trying to hyperoptimize. Symmetic relay is eons ahead of anything out there, so is that last 1% worth the effort? IMO, vanilla symmetric is fantastic, and layering on that little extra is just an exercise in diminishing returns, and may even be counterproductive.

[pescetom]

Thanks Richard and Nick for the documents.

Somebody (dropbox?) added in a couple of SalesMagnet files, which I deleted and hope were innocuous.

Sharko's primer is the document I saw years ago, but it was a bit over my head at the time.

[foobar]

Thanks Richard and Nick for the documents.

Somebody (dropbox?) added in a couple of SalesMagnet files, which I deleted and hope were innocuous.

Sharko's primer is the document I saw years ago, but it was a bit over my head at the time.

Out the curiosity, do you feel the same way about Sharko's document today? It will be interesting to know the parts that were tougher to understand.

[enigmisto]

I just read through the two different Symmetric Relay documents posted here, to get a feel for the system, and the charts are quite different. I gather that one is transfer-oriented and one isn't. Does this mean there's no standard meaning of the term "Symmetric Relay"?

[hrothgar]

I just read through the two different Symmetric Relay documents posted here, to get a feel for the system, and the charts are quite different. I gather that one is transfer-oriented and one isn't. Does this mean there's no standard meaning of the term "Symmetric Relay"?

 

The defining feature of symmetric relay is that bids with the same shape are typically resolved at the same level.

So, all 5431 hands revolve shape with a 3♦ bid

6421 hands resolve shape with a 3♥ bid

 

Associated with this, you typically see standard modules

 

2!H show a two suited pattern with 4 cards in suit foo, 5+ in suit bar

2!S shows a two suited patterns with 5+ cards in suit foo and 5+ in suit bar

2N shows a two suited pattern with 4 cards in suit bar, 5+ in suit foo

 

Stuff like what you are talking about is more about how you initially identify what suits foo and bar happen to be.

 

Some folks use transfers, others don't.

This is more viewed as a detail

[pescetom]

Out the curiosity, do you feel the same way about Sharko's document today? It will be interesting to know the parts that were tougher to understand.

 

I'll go through it again this weekend and let you know.

[enigmisto]

See the resources mentioned above (Sharko, Richard). Kit Woolsey published a book called KK Relay (see the BridgeWinners shop). In the past, I would have recommended the excellent b2sym for software, but perhaps, it's best to line up a like-minded partner, and practice using a BBO teaching table (using the resources mentioned above).

 

This forum is an excellent resource if it clicks, and there are specific questions.

 

I have begun reading KK Relay, thanks to the recommendation here. This has to be the thickest Bridge book I've ever purchased! Very impressive depth and clarity of content.

 

But I was surprised to discover that despite its epic length, the book doesn't really describe a complete a bidding system (at least from what I've seen so far). It appears to just describe a 1C Relay for your favorite Strong 1C system. What do the authors play over other openings? What bidding system are you KK Relay fans pairing the relay with?

 

How does KK Relay differ from the Symmetric Relay described in Nick Hughes' book?

[foobar]

 

But I was surprised to discover that despite its epic length, the book doesn't really describe a complete a bidding system (at least from what I've seen so far). It appears to just describe a 1C Relay for your favorite Strong 1C system.

 

That's a very legitimate critique of the book. I can't speak for the authors' intent, but my guess is that they wanted to focus on introducing the reader to symmetric relay concepts, and other things took a backseat. That said, the book does describe a 2♣ GFR over a 1M opening, though the "shape first" approach means that it's symmetric+2 perforce, and not something that I would recommend. For alternatives, see the discussion thread here (scroll down for the final version): 1M-2C GFR. Note that using 1N as a GFR will achieve symmetric+0, but that comes with its own set of issues.

 

What do the authors play over other openings? What bidding system are you KK Relay fans pairing the relay with?

Kit plays Precision 1♦ / 2♦ with a mini-NT (10-12) NV with 5CM AFAIK. There's no reason to stick with this template, and you can pair it with whatever you like. FWIW, my preference to use something like SCUM since it makes it possible to use the exact same relay over 1♣, 1♣ (reverse relay), 1M, 2m, etc.

 

 

How does KK Relay differ from the Symmetric Relay described in Nick Hughes' book?

SCAMP is a 4-card major (maybe canape) system, and my recollection is that the 1♣ relay responses are designed to very similar to the 1♦ (♠, not ♥), 1♥ (♥, not ♠), and 1♠ (both majors) openings. You can find a description of the relays here:SCAMP

[enigmisto]

I don't know anything about SCUM. Where would I learn more about it? Is there a book that describes it in detail?

 

I'm definitely interested to see more examples of how symmetric relay can be applied pervasively across a bidding system, as opposed to just in the 1C opening. Any pointers would be appreciated.

[foobar]

I don't know anything about SCUM. Where would I learn more about it? Is there a book that describes it in detail?

 

I'm definitely interested to see more examples of how symmetric relay can be applied pervasively across a bidding system, as opposed to just in the 1C opening. Any pointers would be appreciated.

I have sent you a DM so that we don't hijack this thread.