Swing and a Miss

[Winstonm]

This came up tonight. Bad luck or poor judgement? Matchpoints.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa984ha632da54cat&n=sk3hkqj9dj6ckj852&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1cp1hp2hp4hppp]266|200[/hv]

[akwoo]

Notrump range?

 

Actually, is this slam even over 50%? Even if it is a bit over 50%, I don't think I want to be in it against a usual club field.

[mw64ahw]

As South you're strong enough to start cue-bidding, so 3♠ for me. The simple test with South having a modified looking trick count of 5.5 is 19-7.5-5.5=6 level

[P_Marlowe]

My reaction would be: Next board.

 

It is hard to come up, with a reasonable auction seeing both hands,

South may start with a game try 2NT bid, ..., North may be able to

show max. with clubs, but is South really going beyond 4H with this

add. info?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pilowsky]

I generated 64 random hands with the NS holding you describe.

Double-dummy, 3 made 5H. For the other 61, it was ~50% 6H and 50% 7H.

 

What is it about the South hand that should make me want to investigate slam?

[P_Marlowe]

I generated 64 random hands with the NS holding you describe.

Double-dummy, 3 made 5H. For the other 61, it was ~50% 6H and 50% 7H.

 

What is it about the South hand that should make me want to investigate slam?

The South hand is control rich, it has 8 controls, a strong NT has usually 5-6 controls,

if I remember right.

And it fits well with partners 5422 shape.

 

If you play weak NT, making a move is possible, opener is unbal. or has a min strong NT

hand, even 5422 hands ill quite often open the weak NT,

in a strong NT context opener could be 4333.

 

The only wastage is the jack of diamonds.

 

With kind regard

Marlowe

[LBengtsson]

4♥ by south is a Unimaginative bid holding 4 aces. Having set the trump suit with 2♥ I would bid something else. Obviously it will depend on agreements with partner. Every bid 2NT, 3♣, 3♦, 3♠ would have been forcing. Jumping to 4♥ says: that is it partner!

 

I am not saying it is easy to arrive in 6♥ or whether 6♥ will make, but just going to game with South hand is just easy way out.

[nullve]

Bad luck or poor judgement?

Luck and poor judgement, maybe? :)

 

(Unless 2♥ promised 4c support.)

[pescetom]

 

It is hard to come up, with a reasonable auction seeing both hands

 

1♧ 1♡

2♡ 3♤

4♧ 4◇

4♡ 4N

5♤ 6♡

P

 

looks reasonable to me. North's 4♡ is discouraging, but he has to have opened on something and might still have ♤K without ◇K, so South will press on. If anything, it takes some faith for North to trust that partner really has even keycards here.

[Cyberyeti]

Notrump range?

 

Actually, is this slam even over 50%? Even if it is a bit over 50%, I don't think I want to be in it against a usual club field.

 

It's not a great slam, but partner might have xx, KQJx, xx, KQJ9x where all you need is the trump split, the only unattractive feature is the size of the second heart in case partner has say ♣Kxxxx(x)

[Winstonm]

Notrump range?

 

Actually, is this slam even over 50%? Even if it is a bit over 50%, I don't think I want to be in it against a usual club field.

15-17

[Winstonm]

1♧ 1♡

2♡ 3♤

4♧ 4◇

4♡ 4N

5♤ 6♡

P

 

looks reasonable to me. North's 4♡ is discouraging, but he has to have opened on something and might still have ♤K without ◇K, so South will press on. If anything, it takes some faith for North to trust that partner really has even keycards here.

Isn’t 3S splinter for you?

[Winstonm]

I generated 64 random hands with the NS holding you describe.

Double-dummy, 3 made 5H. For the other 61, it was ~50% 6H and 50% 7H.

 

What is it about the South hand that should make me want to investigate slam?

Did your random hands include 11 and 12 point opening hands? Even a better hand such as Qxx, KQJx, Qx, Kxxx would be a struggle to make 5 hearts

[apollo1201]

4H is a lazy bid.

 

KQxx trump and KQxxx in the opening suit + a side K or a singleton are possible hands for p.

 

Why not ask them. Of course when they turn up with their usual flat and quacky garbage they alone call an opening, they’ll reject and you can bid game with the feeling of having done the job.

 

Here they’ll be more excited and it depends on how you ask and how partner answers. Some good players I know have a slam investigator relay at 2NT, responder will say suitable hand with a decent suit, and then they will probably reach this borderline slam.

[pilowsky]

Did your random hands include 11 and 12 point opening hands? Even a better hand such as Qxx, KQJx, Qx, Kxxx would be a struggle to make 5 hearts

 

I specified exactly the hands provided and then asked the program (playbridge.com) to generate 64 hands.

When I save the .LIN file; it automatically opens in Bridgesolver, allowing me to step through the double-dummy solutions and count (using my fingers) the number of times it makes less than 6H.

No programming skill is needed.

The problem is presented with both hands showing and, as I said, "what is it about the South hand etc.".

Clearly, it is easy to imagine all kinds of hands North where slam is out of the question.

I agree that more simulation of North would be needed to work out the proportion of [fixed South - variable opening hand North combinations] leads to slam.

I don't have enough fingers for that.

Hence my question.

[pescetom]

Isn’t 3S splinter for you?

No, it's an indifferentiated control bid, could be a void or singleton or A or K.

The advantage of showing first or second level control at the lowest level possible is presumed superior to any advantage of differentiating the type of control.

This is a good case in point, North with Kx can be fairly confident it shows an A.

[smerriman]

I generated 64 random hands with the NS holding you describe.

Double-dummy, 3 made 5H. For the other 61, it was ~50% 6H and 50% 7H.

 

What is it about the South hand that should make me want to investigate slam?

It's not about the South hand, or the North hand. It's about the fact your double dummy sim sees both the East and West hands, and therefore knows exactly how to play the club suit, making your numbers way higher than reality.

[DavidKok]

As South you're strong enough to start cue-bidding, so 3♠ for me. The simple test with South having a modified looking trick count of 5.5 is 19-7.5-5.5=6 level

 

No, it's an indifferentiated control bid, could be a void or singleton or A or K.

The advantage of showing first or second level control at the lowest level possible is presumed superior to any advantage of differentiating the type of control.

This is a good case in point, North with Kx can be fairly confident it shows an A.

You can bid 3♠ slowly, by first making another bid between 2♥ and 3♥. I strongly prefer that the jump shows a clear direction and is tightly defined - in this case a splinter bid - and that the slower route is used on more generic hand types. Your treatment does not win any space (and in fact may well cost some), so I don't understand this 'lowest level possible'. What happened to 2♠-3♦? Aren't those lower? And how does North deduce that partner has the ace of spades, and not a splinter (opposite which Kx is horrible)? Your comment implies that partner would also bid 3♠ with a splinter hand.

 

Personally I play Spiral after this sequence, and would make use of it. But absent that agreement I would still start with 2♠ (advance cue or short suit trial) and then set up a game force on the next round.

[mw64ahw]

You can bid 3♠ slowly, by first making another bid between 2♥ and 3♥. I strongly prefer that the jump shows a clear direction and is tightly defined - in this case a splinter bid - and that the slower route is used on more generic hand types. Your treatment does not win any space (and in fact may well cost some), so I don't understand this 'lowest level possible'. What happened to 2♠-3♦? Aren't those lower? And how does North deduce that partner has the ace of spades, and not a splinter (opposite which Kx is horrible)? Your comment implies that partner would also bid 3♠ with a splinter hand.

 

Personally I play Spiral after this sequence, and would make use of it. But absent that agreement I would still start with 2♠ (advance cue or short suit trial) and then set up a game force on the next round.

Which Spiral are you talking about?

1. the one that asks if a 3/4 card support, or
2. the one that aims to tease out your honours

 

[DavidKok]

The 3/4 card support version, which incidentally reveals partner's shape. The responding hand is perfect for that. With all aces we don't need controls, we need partner to have a source of tricks. If partner is unbalanced with 4 hearts and 5 clubs I am optimistic about slam, and I will learn about partner's shortness or if they are 2=4=2=5 (which is a warning sign). If partner has got a balanced minimum with 4-card support I am settling for game. I might even land in 3NT if partner has an unbalanced hand with 3-card support.

 

Edit: some brief Googling shows a thousand and one different versions of Spiral. But I think going into the detailed followups that I happen to play would be getting off topic. Even without this gadget the South hand should take the slower route.

[nullve]

Or 4♠ if partner is allowed to raise to 2♥ with 4315.

 

(For some,

 

1♣-1♥

1♠-1N

2♥

 

promises extras, so with a bad minimum (11-13 hcp, say) Opener might have to raise directly if at all. (And if he doesn't, a 5-3 heart fit might be missed.))

[DavidKok]

Not my personal style, and also 2♠ would not get me there unfortunately (although I could get there by bidding 2NT), but if partner can still hold that hand I definitely want to keep that option open.

[pescetom]

You can bid 3♠ slowly, by first making another bid between 2♥ and 3♥. I strongly prefer that the jump shows a clear direction and is tightly defined - in this case a splinter bid - and that the slower route is used on more generic hand types. Your treatment does not win any space (and in fact may well cost some), so I don't understand this 'lowest level possible'. What happened to 2♠-3♦? Aren't those lower? And how does North deduce that partner has the ace of spades, and not a splinter (opposite which Kx is horrible)? Your comment implies that partner would also bid 3♠ with a splinter hand.

Our 3S jump does show a clear direction (control-bid please) and is tightly defined (first or second level control, at least mild slam interest). I might argue that a splinter is over-tightly defined and a waste of useful space, but to each his own. 3D would be a short suit game try, most likely with invitational values only. Partner can figure out that a singleton is fairly unlikely, as opps with a ten card major fit often make it known. But in any case he isn't worried as it will soon become obvious whether it was an Ace or not once keycards are declared, in this case he only had to wait for 4NT which "has" to be 4 Aces.

[DavidKok]

Our 3S jump [...] is tightly defined (first or second level control, at least mild slam interest).

I'm arguing that this is not tight enough by a long shot, since neither side knows enough about partner's distribution.

[pescetom]

I'm arguing that this is not tight enough by a long shot, since neither side knows enough about partner's distribution.

Any system has its own tradeoffs in terms of how precisely distribution is defined versus other advantages.

And nobody obliges S to use this jump if she doesn't feel it is the best bid in the circumstances, distribution seeking bids are available.

 

In this case bear in mind that N with minors 4-4 would have opened 1D, so at worst he is 3433 or 3424 or 2434 and more likely 2425, still interesting propositions given S hand and the possibility to nail down controls early.