2NT feature ask

[1parastoo]

Hi,

My partner and I use 2NT as feature asking after a weak 2 open. Does the use of 2NT require a balanced hand?

Thanks,

Mark

[smerriman]

No, 2nt is entirely artificial and can be used with any hand. You might be unsure about game or considering bidding grand slam.

[Douglas43]

No, 2nt is entirely artificial and can be used with any hand. You might be unsure about game or considering bidding grand slam.

 

I'd just add to smerriman's comment that 2NT is a way of helping you choose the right contract, if you are confident that you want to be in 3NT or 4 of opener's major, you just bid it

[pescetom]

I'd just add to smerriman's comment that 2NT is a way of helping you choose the right contract, if you are confident that you want to be in 3NT or 4 of opener's major, you just bid it

 

I think that depends at least partly upon your preempt style: if it is as wide ranging as mine, then you could rarely just bid 4 without being concerned about missing 6 or going for -500 vulnerable vs not. Hence the usefulness of some enquiry. Although with a wide ranging style there are good arguments for using Ogust instead of Feature, as it allows the opener to give an idea of strength as well as distribution (3♣ basically says "I opened with rubbish", which is getting closer to a pyschic control than Feature does).

[Douglas43]

I think that depends at least partly upon your preempt style: if it is as wide ranging as mine, then you could rarely just bid 4 without being concerned about missing 6 or going for -500 vulnerable vs not. Hence the usefulness of some enquiry. Although with a wide ranging style there are good arguments for using Ogust instead of Feature, as it allows the opener to give an idea of strength as well as distribution (3♣ basically says "I opened with rubbish", which is getting closer to a pyschic control than Feature does).

 

These are fair points and I normally play Ogust, but this is the beginner and novice forum, and I'm conscious of one or two people finding that the comments were too technical / complex

 

New readers - "Ogust" is a system of step responses by which opener describes how many points the hand contains and how good the suit is

3♣ min points / poor suit

3♦ min points / good suit

3♥ max points / poor suit

3♠ max points / good suit

[pescetom]

These are fair points and I normally play Ogust, but this is the beginner and novice forum, and I'm conscious of one or two people finding that the comments were too technical / complex

 

New readers - "Ogust" is a system of step responses by which opener describes how many points the hand contains and how good the suit is

3♣ min points / poor suit

3♦ min points / good suit

3♥ max points / poor suit

3♠ max points / good suit

Plus 3NT = solid suit.

 

 

Quite right about keeping the level appropriate to beginner and novice, the psychic control issue can wait a few years :)

 

Personally I favour teaching beginners Ogust, both because it helps them relax about opening weak weak 2 openings and because it is a useful indicator of their ability to memorize and understand conventions: some struggle for years uncertain about the red suit responses.

[morecharac]

New readers - "Ogust" is a system of step responses by which opener describes how many points the hand contains and how good the suit is

3♣ min points / poor suit

3♦ min points / good suit

3♥ max points / poor suit

3♠ max points / good suit

3NT - AKQ in the suit (I played Ogust for years before reading this; I've never seen opener have that hand)

 

Min/max is lower/upper half of HCP range; good suit is 2/3 top honours or 3/5 for the more manic adventurous players like me.

 

It's a great convention for finding major-suit games where all the honours are on the short side, which happens suspiciously often in predealt hands.

[awm]

Apparently in Germany it's quite common that the 2NT bid shows 15+ points, and they seem to require an alert if this is not your agreement! This took us by surprise when we started playing in Europe.

 

In any case, it certainly doesn't require a balanced hand.

[pescetom]

Apparently in Germany it's quite common that the 2NT bid shows 15+ points, and they seem to require an alert if this is not your agreement! This took us by surprise when we started playing in Europe.

 

In any case, it certainly doesn't require a balanced hand.

 

In most of Europe (I expect Germany too) 2NT would require an alert unless it is natural (willing to play 2NT). In that case the requirement is not strictly quantitative, it's more about your chances of running opener's suit and not getting trashed in some other. Doesn't strike me as a good idea unless you conventionalise it to give opener more information, in which case it needs alert just like Ogust or Feature.

[Gilithin]

Hi,

My partner and I use 2NT as feature asking after a weak 2 open. Does the use of 2NT require a balanced hand?

Thanks,

Mark

A balanced hand is by no means required but by far the most common use of a feature ask is deciding on whether to play 3NT or not so Responder will often have a balanced or semi-balanced hand. It is also good to be aware of some issues of the traditional feature ask. The most basic one is that you do not get an answer to the question of min or max, which is often the most important question on whether to play game or not. The second is more subtle - if Opener shows a feature and you choose to play 3NT, good defenders will often lead the feature suit to kill your entry. Thus feature often loses as much as it gains because the defence becomes very easy.

 

Because of these issues, the number of pairs playing the traditional feature ask structure has declined greatly. One alternative that has already been mentioned is Ogust:

 

3♣ = min, poor suit

3♦ = min, good suit

3♥ = max, poor suit

3♠ = max good suit

3NT = AKQxxx

 

 

Some pairs combine both methods, playing 2X - 2NT as Ogust and 2X - 3♣ as a feature ask. In the latter case, 3NT becomes the response with a max and a club feature.

 

You can also rearrange the feature ask responses to incorporate a site ask:

 

3♣ = any min

3NT = extras + ♣ feature

others = as per traditional feature ask except that 3X is a max

 

If X was a major, 3♦ over a 3♣ response is nor a second feature ask - you have to decide which of 3♥, 3♠ and 3NT refer to the 3 feature suits. Because of this, this method is not really beginner-friendly.

 

A similar approach sometimes seen is:

 

3♣ = min with feature

3♦ = no feature

3♥, 3♠, 3NT = max with feature

 

Again here, the level of artificiality makes it unsuitable for beginners.

 

The (arguably) most complex of these 2NT asks use a combination of Ogust and feature. There are a few about, for example:

 

3♣ = max, good suit (3♦ asks for a feature)

3♦ = any min

3♥3♠3NT = max, bad suit, feature

 

For pairs that like undisciplined Weak 2M openings, quite popular is to modify Ogust to cover 3 ranges:

 

3♣ = min for a normal Weak 2

3♦ = max, poor suit (Note: 3♥ if X = ♦)

3X = complete trash

3oM = max, good suit

3NT = AKQxxx

 

Finally, a method that is increasingly popular is to use a shortage ask. One well-known version runs:

 

3♣ = max with minor suit shortage

3♦ = max, no shortage (Note: 3♥ if X = ♦)

3X = any min

3oM = max, short in oM

 

There are several other structures but they often come in combination with a non-standard system so it is pointless to go into detail on them here.

 

Anyway, that is more or less a summary of the main options. To start with just play what you are comfortable with. I think it is good to be aware that there is a big range of choice here though, both for later on and for having an idea what opponents might be doing.

[Gilithin]

Apparently in Germany it's quite common that the 2NT bid shows 15+ points, and they seem to require an alert if this is not your agreement! This took us by surprise when we started playing in Europe.

 

In any case, it certainly doesn't require a balanced hand.

The basic German system uses 2NT as a simple min/max ask with a fit - Opener bids 3M with a min or 4M with a max. Pretty terrible.

Forum D+ officially uses a modified feature ask:

 

3M = any min

suit = max and A or K in suit bid

3NT = max, no side suit A/K, no shortage

4suit = max, shortage in suit bid

4♥ = max, shortage in oM

4♠ (if X = ♠) = max, no side suit A/K, no shortage, good spades

 

However, Ogust is also quite widely played. As far as I know, there is no special regulation meaning you do not have to alert if the bid promises 15+hcp.

[paulg]

New readers - "Ogust" is a system of step responses by which opener describes how many points the hand contains and how good the suit is

3♣ min points / poor suit

3♦ min points / good suit

3♥ max points / poor suit

3♠ max points / good suit

My local club players remember this using the mnemonic "12123" - basically the number of honours partner will expect, the higher the bid the stronger.

[1parastoo]

Hi,

I had forgotten I asked this question, but a belated thank you to everyone.

mark

[thepossum]

I've been missing the beginners forum.

 

Just my 2 cents but what would people reckon are the guidelines for bidding 2 or 3 of your own suit rather than 2NT? - thats using the simple basic 2NT

convention (not Ogust etc)

 

With GiB weak twos mean literally I have six of them, less than 11 points, no 4 card side mjnor etc, usually decent points in the suit, and maybe about 7-8 losers. I don't think GiB takes account of vulnerabiity. I use 2,3,4 rule for pre-empts including 2s much of the time :) I think I use it for 1-level bids from time to time too. And I don't usually stick to the strict number of trumps which GiB does. You know exactly how many trumps and range of points it has irrespective of tricks/losers

 

I'm interested in Ogust and other methods but don't have a partner that plays it

[smerriman]

You bid 2NT when you're pretty sure on the strain (almost always partner's suit or no trumps), but aren't sure about how high to bid.

 

You can bid a new suit when you're not sure on the best strain and want to suggest another. Generally you're hoping partner can raise; if not, they'll usually be taking it back to their suit but a level higher, which is why you need a reasonable hand to do so. At the weakest this could be something like a good 5 card major with tolerance for partner's suit, so you're very happy if they raise, but not too upset if they can't.

[pescetom]

And just to spell it out because this is novice and beginners forum, anything but repetition of opener's suit is forcing, including a new suit.

[DavidKok]

I think the answers above make a good 'beginner package' of how to bid constructively after partner opens a weak 2.

Once your partnership becomes more experienced you may opt for a more complicated response structure over the 2NT asking bid (for example: shortness showing, Ogust, Meckwell or other), which also makes it appropriate for a wider range of hands held by responder.

At my local club it is popular to psyche 2NT with a weak hand and length in opener's suit, intending to raise to 4M (or 5m) on the next round regardless of answer (for some reason they never bid 3NT on the second round, which I suspect is significantly more effective). This in turn has made it popular to bid (bid! bid!) over their 2NT with a rich hand. Which in turn has caused problems for the pairs playing 'sophisticated' versions of 2NT, since the structure no longer fits in the bidding space available after interference.

In general I recommend asking the opponents whether 2NT shows a strong hand or not. Some partnerships will insist that it need not show strength, regardless of local regulations. And if you have your own ideas on this, ask the director whether your agreement is legal and/or needs to be announced or alerted.

 

Of course with GIB the point is somewhat moot. The robot decides on the meaning of the bid.

[Cyberyeti]

Things you need to discuss when not playing with robots - I'll give the beginner defaults

 

If you open 2red weak, is 2♠ forcing (default is yes)

 

Is 2N always strong (yes) and do you play natural or artificial responses to it (default will vary, many play Ogust, I always played rebid of suit min, bid a side suit feature with max, 3N max no side Q)

 

What is 3♠ over 2red ? (not sure there is a default, nat F suit setting or a fit jump both playable here)

[mycroft]

Agreeing with the 'Yeti (as usual), but adding my standard line that the first thing you have to agree on is what your 2 bids look like. That will in many cases determine the answers to his questions.

 

A note: with one partner, I play 2NT "feature ask, 3NT says I have one, 3suit says no". With the style of preempts (very sound) we play, this is clearly the most useful information to give partner that limits what the opponents get. If your style is similar, it's another option for "best for you".

[Cyberyeti]

Agreeing with the 'Yeti (as usual), but adding my standard line that the first thing you have to agree on is what your 2 bids look like. That will in many cases determine the answers to his questions.

 

 

I didn't want to go there in N/B but what your weak 2 looks like changes what's best IMO, we play very wide ranging weak 2s so it's reasonably clear to play change of suit NF, the more tightly defined your weak 2s, the less useful this is.

[mycroft]

I understand, sorry to confuse where you intended to avoid it.

 

But even N/B need to understand that there is an answer to that question - even if it's the only one they learned, "well, it'll be 6 cards 2/top 3, of course,..." - partly because other people (like you and I) play it very differently, and so they can answer the question when asked by "you and I" (and them, once they realize it's something worth knowing on defence).

 

And yes, it does help determine the answer to the questions about further agreements. Or at least, given N/B, it helps their mentor teach them the answer to these questions about further agreements. Many will teach it "all in one piece", of course, with their favourite style for students; which is good, but can add to the "there's only one way to play" for B/N.

[pescetom]

I didn't want to go there in N/B but what your weak 2 looks like changes what's best IMO, we play very wide ranging weak 2s so it's reasonably clear to play change of suit NF, the more tightly defined your weak 2s, the less useful this is.

 

We play quite wide ranging weak 2s but still prefer change of suit forcing, in combination with Ogust where we can get out at 3 level if opener does not have the goods (if opener is fairly likely to be 5-card I can see that NF would gain appeal).

[thepossum]

 

....

 

At my local club it is popular to psyche 2NT....

 

? popular and psyche

 

Call the director

 

Club rules :)

[DavidKok]

I have, and the director adjusted the score most of the time. But I predict it will continue to happen.

[Gilithin]

I have, and the director adjusted the score most of the time. But I predict it will continue to happen.

Wow, you must be on very friendly terms with the TD. First of all, is there really a RA that bans a 2NT response on anything but "strong" hands? If there is, how do they define "strong"? Take ♠Ax ♥Axx ♦AKxx ♣AKxx in response to 2♠ for example. Is that "strong"? Because if so, to LTC fans it has the same 6 losers as ♠Qxxxx ♥- ♦Qxxx ♣Qxxx. So you have to accept that the latter hand is also "strong", since pairs are allowed to use this own choice of evaluation method. Take away the 3 kings - ♠Ax ♥Axx ♦Axxx ♣Axxx - can a player respond 2NT now? 8 losers gives us ♠xxxxx ♥- ♦xxxx ♣Qxxx. So now we would have that a void and any stray queen is "strong".

 

As long as a pair do not say that the 2NT hand is "always strong" and have never has a hand come up where the bid was made without a strong hand (whatever that might mean), I do not see what MI has been provided. Absent a fully illegal agreement, the TD should only rule against the pair if there is both MI and damage resulting from that MI. If the TD is adjusting "most of the time", I strongly suspect that they are completely clueless as to the rules of the game and are simply anti-psyche, a position that is not only wrong but dangerous when combined with a mindset that the only valid agreement is the one that they think should be played.