How do I bid these hands?

[mikl_plkcc]

Here are two hands which I don't know what I should bid:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq5ht4dakq63c63&n=s986432hak3d7432c7&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1dp1sp]500|300[/hv]

How can I prevent the auction dying out at 4♠?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st6hak842dkjt3c94&n=sa9532h75daq952ca&d=s&a=1hp1sp2dp]500|300[/hv]

How can I get to 6♦?

[LBengtsson]

hand 1. too good a fit with 10 trumps. difficult for north to make a move over south's expected 4♠ bid. here you need some bid as south bidding 2NT as artificial and forcing. even though north has 2 extra trumps and ♥AK and stiff ♣. there are plenty of hands where a slam will not be on.

 

there might be a bid by agreement such as 4♦ here showing good trumps and solid ♦ suit. it could be the only way that north feels confident to go beyond 4♠ knowing all his values are working...

 

hand 2. think you have transferred hands and should be

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st6hak842dkjt3c94&n=sa9532h75daq952ca&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1hp1sp2dp]266|200[/hv]

 

I have looked at this a few times and think north now takes charge in auction knowing 9(+) trump fit...4♣(stiff/splinter) - 4♥(cue) - 4NT (rkcb) - 5♥(♦K + ♥A) - 6♦ though you would may be missing 7♦ if partner has ♠Kx ♥AKxxx ♦Kjxx ♣xx though bidding 28 point grand slams is a art :)

[sfi]

I think North needs to move on hand 1 after the auction 1D - 1S; 4S. There are just too many hands where slam is on, and I would be happy to simply ask for keycards if I had nothing better to try.

 

On hand 2, I'm not sure how you stop North from bidding slam. The auction 1H - 1S; 2D is bad for fourth-suit forcing, but it still works here. For example:

1H - 1S

2D - 3C

3x - 4D

4H - 4S

5D - 6C

6D

 

Which has some cues and North shows the small doubleton heart and the single spade honour. Or North can ask for keycards and suggest 7. Or North can start with a splinter and go from there.

 

It's often a good idea to ask yourself "if I had to guess right now, where would I choose to play the hand?" Once you have that answer, you can then try and work out ways to either give or get better information to make a final decision. On both these hands, North should be thinking their best guess is the six-level after partner's second bid, and the subsequent auction will give them no reason to think their assessment is wrong.

[DavidKok]

I think both of these slams are extremely hard to bid, even with gadgets.

I play 4♦ as a GF spade raise with solid diamonds on the first auction, but partner will expect 6 of them and the extra trick is important. I am not sure what I would bid, probably just 4♠ as well.

On hand 2 South has a straightforward 3♣ bid over 2♦, but if partner bids 3NT I will pass (partner rates to be 1=5=4=3, opposite which we need significant extra values to take 12 tricks). On the actual hand partner bids 3♦ and we are in business. Continue 4♦ (mild slam try)-4♠ (control); 5♦ (heart control but no club control, minimum in context)-6♦ (club control, maximum with all those aces). With my regular partner I would have jumped to 3♦ over 1♠ to show a trick-taking 5-5 with at most 15HCP, allowing 3♥ (values or advance cue)-3♠(control); 4♦(hearts was an advance cue, missing clubs)-5♣(club control, nothing extra in hearts or spades); 6♦ but we play Gazzilli here.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 an old agreement (so old, that it could be claimed to be standard) is,

that 4D in the given auction showes support and good diamond suit,

I think nowadays it is 5422, with a single make the splinter, it used to be 64 shape,

but the 64 variant was less frequent.

Partner should move on, seeing, that the partnership has a 64 fit, at most 1 looser

in heart / clubs, the 3 card diamond support is an add. benefit.

 

#2 FSF, follwed by a diamond raise.

I guess you open 1NT with all 5332 hands, i.e. South knowes about the 54 fit and that North

is at least 54??, given his unbal. shape he wont be to keen to play 3NT, so by passing 3NT

is not a big issue.

Playing IMPs makes this simpler.

 

If opener could still be 5332 it may be harder, although having a club Single looking at a

3 card suit, does not make 3NT an attractive target.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mw64ahw]

1st hand

1♦-1♠

3♠ (4+ Str+) - 4♣ SI ctrl (skipping 3NT despite weak suit w. 10 card fit ) MLT of <=8 required plus a KC

4♦ ctrl - 4♥ ctrl

5♦ 3KCs w. K♦-5♥ K♥

6♠

 

I play a Transfer Walsh version

1♣ -1♥

3♦ (4+♠5+♦ Str+) - 4♣ SI ctrl (skipping 3NT despite weak suit w. 10 card fit ) MLT of <=8 required plus a KC

4♦ ctrl - 4♥ ctrl

5♦ 3KCs w. K♦ - 5♥ K♥

6♠

[mw64ahw]

2nd hand

1♥ -1♠

2♦-3♣ FSF

3NT - 4♦ GF/SI

4♥ 2KCs - 6♦ no Ks

 

I play Kaplan Inversion

1♥ - 1♠ Forcing NT or 5+♠ GF

1NT balanced or 4+♦ - 2♣ Which?

2♦ 4+♦ - 2♠ 5+♠ GF

2NT Min<3♠ - 3♣

3NT - 4♦ GF/SI

4♥ 2KCs - 6♦ no Ks

[Winstonm]

Here are two hands which I don't know what I should bid:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq5ht4dakq63c63&n=s986432hak3d7432c7&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1dp1sp]500|300[/hv]

How can I prevent the auction dying out at 4♠?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st6hak842dkjt3c94&n=sa9532h75daq952ca&d=s&a=1hp1sp2dp]500|300[/hv]

How can I get to 6♦?

 

The questions you ask should be 1) how do we - the partnership - reach the optimal contract, if possible? and 2) How do we reach slam?

 

On 1, it is very difficult to overcome the hesitancy inherent with poor trumps. The only way to have a reasonable shot is if your partnership has an understanding about the quality of the support for some spade raise/game bid - a picture bid of great trump. If your partnership would use your game bid raise with Kxxx or less, you are probably never getting to slam because you have to have partner's input and partner will not cooperate without confidence in trumps.

 

On hand 2, I think it is important to let partner know what suit will be trumps as soon as possible. For that reason I would not use fourth suit force - can you imagine a 3C bid and a 3S by opener (what else is he supposed to do?) then 4D - is that diamonds or a cue for spades?

 

To stop the madness, I am inclined to bid a direct 4D over 2D. Sure, it takes up more room but it eliminates confusion. The fact that you are past 3NT should itself be some kind of slammish try. Partner may try 4H now as an attempt to play 4H, but I would now bid 5C. This tells partner clubs and spades are both controlled. Once partner knows clubs and spades are controlled and I have good diamond support, he or she will bid 5H now as a genuine cue bid. This leads to 6D.

[DavidKok]

To stop the madness, I am inclined to bid a direct 4D over 2D. Sure, it takes up more room but it eliminates confusion. The fact that you are past 3NT should itself be some kind of slammish try.

In my partnership this would be forcing, despite the fact that fourth suit forcing was available. South is about an ace and a singleton short for that bid, in my opinion. Or is this a NF slam try? Partner may very well have 5=1=4=3 and 12 points or so.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I think 4D is a valid alternative to FSF, simplifying the auction quite often,

although being in automatic mode, which is quite of the case with me, I would go

the FSF route, ..., I may discover a 53 fit in spades.

FSF may also tell you about club wastage, if partner bids 3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: The FSF route consumes also a lot of space, you set diamonds even with FSF

on the 4 level, so the direct jump does not cost, if you are bound to go for diamonds.

[Cyberyeti]

We have methods for the first one that only work in weak NT (using a 2N rebid as GF unbal, then showing the big 4252) some people play a 4♦ rebid as this hand.

 

The second I think we bid 4♣ to initiate cue bidding and agree diamonds, partner bids 4♦ and now 4♥ to ask aces.

[Winstonm]

In my partnership this would be forcing, despite the fact that fourth suit forcing was available. South is about an ace and a singleton short for that bid, in my opinion. Or is this a NF slam try? Partner may very well have 5=1=4=3 and 12 points or so.

Game force only. But if you are forcing an 11-trick contract voluntarily you probably have at least slight slam ambitions

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&w=sakq5ht4dakq63c63&e=s986432hak3d7432c7&d=w&v=e&b=11&a=1C(ART 16+HCP)P1H(ART G/F 4+ !S 8+HCP)P2S(ASK sets !S)P3C(1/4 key cards)P3D(ASK in !D?)P3S(No 1/2 control)P4C(ASK in !C?)P4H(!C control, !HK)P4N(ASK any more?)P5S(No)P6SPPP]400|300|

mikl_plkcc 'Here are two hands which I don't know what I should bid:

How can I prevent the auction dying out at 4♠?'

++++++++++++++++++

Self-Indulgence :) Practicing Jasmine (Simple STR 1♣ system) :)

Hands rotated to make West dealer. [/hv][hv=pc=n&w=st6hak842dkjt3c94&e=sa9532h75daq952ca&b=2&v=e&d=w&a=1H(NAT 9-15 HCP 4+ !H)P1S(NAT 5+ HCP 4+ !S)P2D(NAT 5+ !H 4+ !D 9-13 HCP)P4C(ASK sets !D?)P4S(ART 2 keys)P4N(ASK Any more?)P5H(!HK)P6DPPP]400|300|

mikl_plkcc 'How can I get to 6♦?'

++++++++++++++++++

Self-Indulgence :) Practicing Jasmine (Simple STR 1♣ system) :)

Hands rotated to make West dealer.

A bit of a struggle.[/hv]

[morecharac]

Here are two hands which I don't know what I should bid:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq5ht4dakq63c63&n=s986432hak3d7432c7&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1dp1sp]500|300[/hv]

How can I prevent the auction dying out at 4♠?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st6hak842dkjt3c94&n=sa9532h75daq952ca&d=s&a=1hp1sp2dp]500|300[/hv]

How can I get to 6♦?

A combination of frustration and mania.

[pescetom]

Please open two separate threads with two interesting hands like this.

[mycroft]

Here are two hands which I don't know what I should bid:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq5htdakq63c643&n=s986432hak3c752d7&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1dp1sp]500|300[/hv]

How can I stop in 4♠?

Frankly, without some gadget (like the picture bid 4D call suggested by others), you're never getting this right all the time.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sKThQJ842dkjt3cK9&n=sa9532h75daq952ca&d=s&a=1hp1sp2dp]500|300[/hv]

How can I get to 3NT instead of the poor MP-scoring 5♦?

Well, this is the horror of minor suit slams and matchpoints, isn't it? Of course, you make an overtrick in 5♦ (but still losing to 3NT+x), but 6♦ goes down, possibly doubled, on the heart lead...

 

Note: in case it isn't obvious, I have changed the hands. Hence, the "well, almost".

[Cyberyeti]

Frankly, without some gadget (like the picture bid 4D call suggested by others), you're never getting this right all the time.

 

Well, this is the horror of minor suit slams and matchpoints, isn't it? Of course, you make an overtrick in 5♦ (but still losing to 3NT+x), but 6♦ goes down, possibly doubled, on the heart lead...

 

Note: in case it isn't obvious, I have changed the hands. Hence, the "well, almost".

 

For the modified hands:

 

The first we have methods for 1♦-1♠-2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced)-4♥4153-4♠, if you play 3♥ as a full on splinter GF, partner bids 4♥ and you know you're off a club control so sign off.

 

The second you may well make 6♦ as declarer's first suit is not notmally top of the list to lead. But 1♥-1♠-2♦-4♣-4♦- now for us, 4♥ asks aces, 4♠ offers a playable contract particularly at pairs (is what you'd do with ♠KJ/KQ, it's close to do that here) 4N is a heart cue, so when you bid 5♣ partner signs off.

[mycroft]

I wasn't saying it can't be done. Or that there aren't methods (although I notice you end up in 5♦ losing to all the mindless pairs scoring 430. Spades probably doesn't make as manymore tricks than NT either). I have some methods as well, but as you know they cause issues with other descriptions, and require pages and pages of "here's how we show the hands we used to show naturally", and pages of "here's how we show the hands we used to show with those sequences",... Not exactly "simple answers to simple problems".

 

I'm saying that unless you're willing to system up, there are hands where if partner has one shape, you'll be right and another shape consistent with the bidding will be totally wrong. Whether you don't look for more or you do, sometimes you will win, and sometimes you will get too high/to the wrong place.

 

"these are obvious slams, how can we reach them?" is a good question. Sometimes the answer is "without looking at the hand records before, or working on system for 3 months, you don't", and if that answer is not one of the first looked at (rejected, of course, a lot), "these are obvious slams, how can we reach them?" is also the first question on the road to Resulter. Go far enough down that path, and you will never recover.

[Cyberyeti]

I wasn't saying it can't be done. Or that there aren't methods (although I notice you end up in 5♦ losing to all the mindless pairs scoring 430. Spades probably doesn't make as manymore tricks than NT either). I have some methods as well, but as you know they cause issues with other descriptions, and require pages and pages of "here's how we show the hands we used to show naturally", and pages of "here's how we show the hands we used to show with those sequences",... Not exactly "simple answers to simple problems".

Presuming you mean on the modified hands

 

Unless spades are 3-3 or QJ, where are you getting a 10th trick from in NT on the obvious club lead ? Whereas unless ops cash out opener's first suit you may well make 12 in diamonds.