Do You Or Don't You?

[Winstonm]

All vulnerable. No special understandings. Overcall max would be around 16-17. Raise is constructive. Do you move or pass? If you bid, what, and if you pass, why? What would you expect partner's hand to be?

 

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[mikeh]

All vulnerable. No special understandings. Overcall max would be around 16-17. Raise is constructive. Do you move or pass? If you bid, what, and if you pass, why? What would you expect partner's hand to be?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqt53hatdt54cat3&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1h1sp2sp]133|200[/hv]

I have sterile shape and a LTC of 7.

 

At MPs it’s a no-brainer: pass

 

At imps, being vulnerable, I’d need to know more about partner’s choices. I think playing a simple raise as constructive is odd, and I don’t know what it means in this situation.

 

Obviously it’s close at imps but on balance I expect pass to be the winning decision, unless constructive means something more than I’d expect.

 

Kxx xxxx AJx Qxx would seem full values for a constructive raise, and game is borderline at best, and could well have no play.

[sfi]

All vulnerable. No special understandings. Overcall max would be around 16-17. Raise is constructive. Do you move or pass?

Is your single raise significantly stronger than a single raise for an opening 1S bid? If not, and I think the range should be basically the same, would you try for game in the auction 1S-2S?

 

The other thing to consider is whether the opening bid has changed things significantly. Here knowing where the bulk of the points are going to be is only of moderate help. You have a couple of useful positions with AT in hearts and clubs, but it's not all that valuable. Your heart holding isn't great, with four points contributing to one trick and probably not setting up any others. So I can't see a good reason why my expected result in game is better than it is in a part-score.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqt53hatdt54cat3&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1h1sp2sp]133|200| WinstonM 'All vulnerable. No special understandings. Overcall max would be around 16-17. Raise is constructive. Do you move or pass? If you bid, what, and if you pass, why? What would you expect partner's hand to be?

++++++++++++++++++++

Partner's options would normally have included:

1. 2-level raise = usually 3-card support.

2. Higher raises = Pre-emptive with 4+ card support.

3. 2♥ Cue bid = More constructive with 3-card support..

4. 2N = Sound 4-card pudding raise. .

5. Jump shift = Sound 4-card raise. Splinter (shortage in bid suit) Or Fit-jump by agreement.

Now, Pass seems reasonable, especially at Pairs. WinstonM's hand is a sound overcall in terms of HCP and intermediates but with little to spare. Also, without special understandings, it's unclear how to express enthusiasm. Perhaps a 3♣ trial-bid would be OK but most players would need more for a 2N rebid. [/hv]

[Winstonm]

Just to help understanding, Kxx, Jxx, xxx, KQxx would be in the range of expected hands

[LBengtsson]

Simply NO. 3 aces, 2 out of 4 honours in trump suit, and all the '10' cards have no compensation for the balanced 5332 shape. when exploring game with a trial bid, that suit should either be A) a side suit where with partners help tricks can be established, or B) a possible weakness such as Kxx where partner can cover with an honour in his hand.

 

A trial bid of 3♦ does not meet criteria, so I pass 2♠ bid except perhaps that bid is constructive and shows 8-11 instead of weaker hand with a direct raise. If partner is 8-11 then I might make continue on, but how I am not really certain myself?

[DavidKok]

Pass for me as well. If I did want to bid on I'd bid 2NT, a value game try, expecting partner to show values/suit fragments.

[Douglas43]

Pass from me too. Even the maximum cited by Winstonm is far from being a great game contract. Significant chance of Jxxx offside too, given the opening bid and the lack of a raise from responder.

[AL78]

Pass. I don't know how good a "constructive" raise can be here but I suspect to make game it would require partner to have the perfect hand, and playing for partner to have the best hand possible only works in magazine bidding challenges, rarely at the table.

[Cyberyeti]

Pass for me as well. If I did want to bid on I'd bid 2NT, a value game try, expecting partner to show values/suit fragments.

 

Agree but for different reasons, if we're making a game 3N is much more likely than 4♠, what do we need ? K♠ K♣ and either Q♣ or K♥ plus enough diamonds they can't run 5

[DavidKok]

Agree but for different reasons, if we're making a game 3N is much more likely than 4♠, what do we need ? K♠ K♣ and either Q♣ or K♥ plus enough diamonds they can't run 5

2NT keeps 3NT in the picture, I don't think our reasons are all that different. With this many aces I am more inclined to look for 4♠ but partner is allowed to suggest 3NT over a game try, and with this hand I would pass if partner does.

By contrast, if I bid any new suit there is more focus on 4♠.

[Winstonm]

Is your single raise significantly stronger than a single raise for an opening 1S bid? If not, and I think the range should be basically the same, would you try for game in the auction 1S-2S?

 

The other thing to consider is whether the opening bid has changed things significantly. Here knowing where the bulk of the points are going to be is only of moderate help. You have a couple of useful positions with AT in hearts and clubs, but it's not all that valuable. Your heart holding isn't great, with four points contributing to one trick and probably not setting up any others. So I can't see a good reason why my expected result in game is better than it is in a part-score.

 

I have always used a rather old style where the top end of an overcall is around a bad 17 so simple raises should cater to that limited range: 8-10ish.

 

I like your analysis, especially the concern over the heart ace not providing its usual boost to secondary cards.

[Winstonm]

For sake of completion:

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqt53hatdt54cat3&n=sk74hj63dq972cq84&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1h1sp2sp]266|200[/hv]

 

A couple of notes: One, the north hand is borderline on the low side according to agreements. Two, does anyone agree with the notion that with an 8-card fit the fact that there was no raise by west tend to indicate a 6-2 heart distribution?

 

[DavidKok]

 

One: that's a matter for partnership agreement, but it's a bidders game. Ironically, the hand shown is a near maximum for my agreements for a simple raise. 4-9 is about what I would expect, and this hand is a soft 8.

Two: West might be playing an old-fashioned(/sound) style. With 18 combined points it is unlikely but plausible that the hearts split 5-3 and the points 14-4 or the likes, and West declined to bid. But yes, you have a mild indication that the hearts split 6-2.

 

[steve2005]

Agree but for different reasons, if we're making a game 3N is much more likely than 4♠, what do we need ? K♠ K♣ and either Q♣ or K♥ plus enough diamonds they can't run 5

You need specific maximum holdings.

If your try for game on this hand you are going to be in game on hands where responder is 8-10 pts and you have no play or are not better than 50% for game.

Not to mention being in 3♠-1

 

 

[mikl_plkcc]

If I was at the table I would have bid 3♠ without thinking, as the hand is near to a maximum overcall.

 

I can't really understand the above reasoning as an overcall is about 8-16, therefore I expect a raise to have about 8-12. Bidding 3♠ here is to tell the advancer to go on 4♠ holding a maximum, and stop holding a minimum. A cuebid response to an overcall is the catch-all forcing bid, without showing or denying support, as all other bids are non-forcing.

[Winstonm]

If I was at the table I would have bid 3♠ without thinking, as the hand is near to a maximum overcall.

 

I can't really understand the above reasoning as an overcall is about 8-16, therefore I expect a raise to have about 8-12. Bidding 3♠ here is to tell the advancer to go on 4♠ holding a maximum, and stop holding a minimum. A cuebid response to an overcall is the catch-all forcing bid, without showing or denying support, as all other bids are non-forcing.

 

As an attempt to offer a helpful suggestion, I would advise help suit game tries as location of cards is critical in close game decisions.

[mikl_plkcc]

As an attempt to offer a helpful suggestion, I would advise help suit game tries as location of cards is critical in close game decisions.

 

My system has weak suit game try instead (that the suit is bid when holding xxx) - but it is difficult to see when I should use it.

[Winstonm]

My system has weak suit game try instead (that the suit is bid when holding xxx) - but it is difficult to see when I should use it.

Basically there are two schools : short suit game tries and help suit. Short is good but infrequent which is why I chose help suit.

 

There are also 2-way tries and some I have overlooked.

[smerriman]

I can't really understand the above reasoning as an overcall is about 8-16, therefore I expect a raise to have about 8-12.

For me a raise to 2 is capped at a bad 10. Anything more starts with a cuebid (and it's commonly played that this promises support).

[Cyberyeti]

You need specific maximum holdings.

If your try for game on this hand you are going to be in game on hands where responder is 8-10 pts and you have no play or are not better than 50% for game.

Not to mention being in 3♠-1

 

Not at all, Kxx, xxx, xxxx, KQx is rock bottom minimum for this and 3N is good. I don't think form of scoring is stated, teams you don't need it to be 50% vulnerable.

[DavidKok]

Basically there are two schools : short suit game tries and help suit. Short is good but infrequent which is why I chose help suit.

 

There are also 2-way tries and some I have overlooked.

There are four schools: short suit, help suit, side suit and game forcing tries. Most people don't bother learning the (significant!) differences between help suit and side suit. The last school just bids game, and is arguably better off than the side suit approach.

 

As smerriman pointed out, simple raises with an upper limit of 12 are far from optimal. Using the cue bid to distinguish between weak/competitive raises and strong/constructive raises is very helpful - not just for game investigation, but also to prepare partner for the rest of the auction. Personally I draw the line in the vicinity of the 9-point hands, which usually coincides with ~8.5 losers.