Responding to simple overcalls, inexperienced players

[AL78]

An interesting hand came up this evening when I was playing with an inexperienced partner.

 

She held this after LHO had opened 1♦, I overcalled 1♥, RHO bid 1♠:

 

♠A83

♥A5

♦A9853

♣KT7

 

She didn't know what to do and raised me to 2♥. It worked out well, I had made an aggressive overcall and I made it.

 

When it comes to explaining a structure for responding to a simple overcall, I tend to do something like direct raises are LOTT, unassuming cue bid is either a good raise or a hand looking for game in NT, NT responses are 10-12 (1NT), 13-15 (2NT), 16+ (3NT), new suit is a good suit, 10+ HCP, one round forcing.

 

Does this sound a reasonable guide to give her? I know there are different schools of thought over whether a change of suit should be forcing or merely encouraging, my aim is to come up with something that will work most of the time and is easy for her to understand the logic.

[Winstonm]

An interesting hand came up this evening when I was playing with an inexperienced partner.

 

She held this after LHO had opened 1♦, I overcalled 1♥, RHO bid 1♠:

 

♠A83

♥A5

♦A9853

♣KT7

 

She didn't know what to do and raised me to 2♥. It worked out well, I had made an aggressive overcall and I made it.

 

When it comes to explaining a structure for responding to a simple overcall, I tend to do something like direct raises are LOTT, unassuming cue bid is either a good raise or a hand looking for game in NT, NT responses are 10-12 (1NT), 13-15 (2NT), 16+ (3NT), new suit is a good suit, 10+ HCP, one round forcing.

 

Does this sound a reasonable guide to give her? I know there are different schools of thought over whether a change of suit should be forcing or merely encouraging, my aim is to come up with something that will work most of the time and is easy for her to understand the logic.

Some of this depends on the strength of the overcall - I really don’t want to be compelled to find a second bid with AQ1093, 754, 842, 94 if I call 1S over a 1C opening. Also, a new suit force - if you must - should only occur if third seat passes, don’t you think? But I suggest a new suit is encouraging but not forcing.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

your structure sounds reasonable, although I prefer change of suit NF,

although constructive.

Forcing makes the following important seq. part of your rule set

 

(1C) - 1H - Pass - 1S

...

 

It is quite common to play 1S as 4+, but this really works only, if 1S is

forcing.

Differentiating between the forcing nature of new suits on the 1 level

and on the 2 level would be an add. complexitiy level, which can be left out

for the time being.

Similar makeing clear what "constructive" / encouraging means, is also an add.

complexity level.

 

What to do with the given hand: I would suggest she uses the unassuming cue.

Obviously she does not have a fit, but she has compensating values,

and the single raise does not do the hand justice,

..., she would bid the same with an additional heart and without two of her

three Aces.

She should respect a weakness showing answer to the unassuming cue, given that

both opponents bid, and given that there are only 40HCP in the deck.

Both opponents bidding means, they have 18+, her 15 leaves only 7 for you, and

if you scream / mumble "I AM WEAK." / "i am weak", she should believe the scream /

mumbling.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[DavidKok]

I play almost exactly what you write, AL. If we are a passed hand our new suit overcalls become either NF, or forcing fitbids, depending on the level, auction and vulnerability. But for the sake of simplicity I would omit that nuance entirely.

 

I've had some pretty horrible results with the non-assuming cue bid. Instead we increase the range and allowed shapes for the 1NT response - about 8-12 for 1NT, and stronger hands have to start with double (which is what I would bid on the given hand - strength, fewer than three hearts, no long club suit, we even have tolerance for a heart lead should partner suggest defending something down the line). Over such a double, similar to over the non-assuming cue bid, rebidding the overcall suit promises nothing and everything else is extra shape (except 1NT which is some stopper).

 

I understand that NF new suit overcalls have merit, and I've sat through several presentations of the relative (dis)advantages of playing "one over one new suit overcalls" as F/NF, and the same with two over two, or two over one, and why they absolutely must be treated differently for some theoretical reason. This drove both me and my partner up the wall, so now we play all of them forcing except if there are passed hand considerations. It would be stronger to play transfers in this (and similar) situations, avoiding the F/NF issue entirely. But that is far from simple.

 

Winston's example hand is almost a perfect minimum for our 1♠ overcalls - we'd also bid it if the 9 of spades was a small one, and if NV even if the T was a small one instead (but not both).

I play (1m)-1♥-(P)-1♠ forcing, showing 5+, denying 3(+) hearts except for very special hands (say, a good 6 spades with 3 hearts). I doubt it's ideal, but at least it's simple.

[bluenikki]

She didn't know what to do and raised me to 2♥. It worked out well, I had made an aggressive overcall and I made it.

 

When it comes to explaining a structure for responding to a simple overcall, I tend to do something like direct raises are LOTT, unassuming cue bid is either a good raise or a hand looking for game in NT, NT responses are 10-12 (1NT), 13-15 (2NT), 16+ (3NT), new suit is a good suit, 10+ HCP, one round forcing.

 

Does this sound a reasonable guide to give her? I know there are different schools of thought over whether a change of suit should be forcing or merely encouraging, my aim is to come up with something that will work most of the time and is easy for her to understand the logic.

 

Seems to me the important question is not how bad the overcall might be but how good.

 

If advancer is under pressure to keep the bidding open, there must be a variety of bids that do not suggest strength.

[Winstonm]

 

Seems to me the important question is not how bad the overcall might be but how good.

 

If advancer is under pressure to keep the bidding open, there must be a variety of bids that do not suggest strength.

 

Exactly correct. If overcalls are unlimited responding to them is difficult and probably less accurate

[AL78]

Exactly correct. If overcalls are unlimited responding to them is difficult and probably less accurate

 

I tend to have an upper limit of about 16-17 HCP.

[Winstonm]

I tend to have an upper limit of about 16-17 HCP.

From my experiences, 17 is pretty standard for double and bid but many fine players have moved away from that as too rigid.

[AL78]

From my experiences, 17 is pretty standard for double and bid but many fine players have moved away from that as too rigid.

 

I've heard some play a simple overcall could be as good as 18 HCP, the problem is the higher the upper limit, the larger the range, and the harder it becomes for responder to do the right thing. If a 1 level overcall could be 18 HCP, does this mean responder has to strain a bid on a balanced scattered 8 HCP with no immediate support, just in case?

[sfi]

I've heard some play a simple overcall could be as good as 18 HCP, the problem is the higher the upper limit, the larger the range, and the harder it becomes for responder to do the right thing. If a 1 level overcall could be 18 HCP, does this mean responder has to strain a bid on a balanced scattered 8 HCP with no immediate support, just in case?

Not really, although I would be looking to bid on a balanced 8-count most of the time in either situation. It means that some hands don't work well when you double and bid, so people make a simple overcall and hope to have more information to make the right decision later. There is no expectation that overcaller's partner changes their approach. Yes, you can miss game this way. But you can win by being able to show a suit and find a fit earlier, stop lower on a misfit, and better describe two-suiters. Bridge is a game of percentages and no approach will win all the time. But wider overcall ranges are seen as being a long-term better approach than doubling on all 18 counts.

[blackshoe]

There's a hand in Standard Modern Precision where the auction went [hv=d=s&v=0&b=11&a=pp1cdrpp1d3c3dppp]133|100[/hv]

 

NS were playing 2/1. East had about 10 hcp and four diamonds (4=4=4=1 iirc). I was a bit surprised; I would have expected East to be stronger than that. The hands were about 10 points each, I think. As I recall, EW were Greco/Hampson.

[Gilithin]

A very common, if old-fashioned, structure is: new suit>F1R ~9+; 1NT>9-12; 2NT>13-15; 3NT>16-18; cue>limit raise+; direct raise>weak; jump shifts>fit jumps (or splinters if you prefer). This sounds not too far away from where your thought process is taking you. As always for competitive bidding, the lines are a little bit fuzzy since partnership style has an effect at the margins beyond just the effects of general system.

[mikl_plkcc]

There's a hand in Standard Modern Precision where the auction went [hv=d=s&v=0&b=11&a=pp1cdrpp1d3c3dppp]133|100[/hv]

 

NS were playing 2/1. East had about 10 hcp and four diamonds (4=4=4=1 iirc). I was a bit surprised; I would have expected East to be stronger than that. The hands were about 10 points each, I think. As I recall, EW were Greco/Hampson.

 

It's pretty standard to make a takeout double with 10 HCPs with the perfect shape. The shortness worth a lot here as a fit is guaranteed.

 

The 1♦ bid is just an escape because allowing the opponents to play in 1♣xx is a really bad idea even if the partner has 5 good ♣ against a singleton, when our side has few points.

 

In this bidding, N/S is guaranteed the majority of strength, where W may have just a 5 or 6-card ♣, few points and no suits to bid.

[P_Marlowe]

I've heard some play a simple overcall could be as good as 18 HCP, the problem is the higher the upper limit, the larger the range, and the harder it becomes for responder to do the right thing. If a 1 level overcall could be 18 HCP, does this mean responder has to strain a bid on a balanced scattered 8 HCP with no immediate support, just in case?

The test: When you have a strong 5 card major suit, are you willing to show the suit at the 3 level, if they ramp up the auction?

If the answer is yes, go with the TOX, if the answer is no, show the major.