What do you bid?

[elbec]

Hi all,

 

all non-vulnerable the bidding goes:

1♠ of your partner - 3♥ preempt of the opponent and you hold:

 

J

J10xx

J98x

AKxx

 

What would have you bid?

 

Thank you very much for your answers.

 

Alberto

[mr1303]

Pass. I want to defend. When it goes pass pass X I'll pass again.

[kgr]

I play Double is take-out, so I will not do that.

 

3NT can easily by too high and I expect partner to open with a double. H will break bad for opps and I expect to make 3 tricks.

 

Problem is that I should pass after the mandatory pause period after the jump is finished. If I think too long then partner gets UI and maybe will not be able to double anymore.

[luke warm]

i'd pass, hoping for a reopening x

[inquiry]

Pass, Fully expecting partner to reopen with a double as he will be short in their suit.

[Chamaco]

I am also a passer here, for many reasons (misfit, AK in clubs, length in trumps, marginal values for game) but I have a further hand evaluationn question to the folk here:

 

Can you construct and some CONCRETE example hands that would decide to bid here 3NT instead of trap-passing, holding exactly the same shape (1-4-4-4) ?

 

Could you then explain what makes you lean towards 3Nt instead of trap-pass, both an MP and at IMPS?

 

Thanks !!!

 

Mauro

[Fluffy]

seems nearly unanimous vote here :P

[mr1303]

Hmmm.

 

Nope, I can't think of any. Why would I want to bid 3NT when I have:

 

a) No source of trickw

B) No fit

c) Defensive values

 

And any 1444 hand with enough to bid here has enough to extract a big penalty against 3H

[Finch]

Could you then explain what makes you lean towards 3Nt instead of trap-pass, both an MP and at IMPS?

There is no certainty that 3NT is making on the example hand.

Make it stronger, and 3NT is more tempting.

 

So, for example,

 

J

K10xx

QJ9x

AKxx

 

I would bid 3NT vulnerable against not at all forms of scoring. At matchpoints I might try passing at equal vul, hoping for 800 or more. Game all at imps I would probably not risk it, as 3H might end the auction.

 

In addition, the heart suit is not ideal for playing 3NT, as you can't duck. Suppose RHO has AKQxxx, partner has a singleton and LHO a doubleton. Now RHO ducks the heart lead and you have to make the next 8 tricks without losing the lead. OK, that scenario is not that likely, but it's still a consideration when deciding whether to bid 3NT or not.

[luis]

Pass but if pd reopens with a double I will bid 3NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I am not sure, what i would bid at the table,

if partner will always reopen with shortage,

even with bare minimum, I would double for

take out , otherwise I will pass.

 

Marlowe

[mr1303]

If, as most people think, partner's reopening double does not promise any extras, only shows shortage in hearts, then I'm not convinced that bidding 3NT later is better than bidding it now. If anything, partner's shortage is even worse for 3NT, because this increases the likelyhood that LHO may have something of a heart fit.

[P_Marlowe]

If, as most people think, partner's reopening double does not promise any extras, only shows shortage in hearts, then I'm not convinced that bidding 3NT later is better than bidding it now. If anything, partner's shortage is even worse for 3NT, because this increases the likelyhood that LHO may have something of a heart fit.

Hi,

 

I was a little be surprised, that this was the main view,

i.e. that partner is required to reopen with shortage,

if this is the cae, I think passing is very dangerous,

especially if one takes into account, what passes

as an opening bid for some players today.

 

Marlowe

[Guest Jlall]

at the 3H level I think partner will have some extras to reopen. It's just too high for partner to be reopening a 5143 11 count. I would pass, not to trap but because I don't feel I have enough to bid. I'll try 3N if he does X

[Chamaco]

at the 3H level I think partner will have some extras to reopen. It's just too high for partner to be reopening a 5143 11 count. I would pass, not to trap but because I don't feel I have enough to bid. I'll try 3N if he does X

Justin,

what makes you think 3NT will score better than 3HX ?

 

See also my side question on this thread:

holdin 1-4-4-4, which suit texture and hcp values considerations do you apply to decide whether defend doubled or bid 3NT (nobody vuln) ?

[Guest Jlall]

with 1444 (and a stopper) if I ever thought I had enough to have some confidence of making 3N, I would bid 3N. There is a large risk of trapping that pard might not reopen at the 3 level.

 

I consider it a very difficult choice if I pass and pard Xs what to do. They could conceivably make if they have a diamond side suit, but thats very unlikely. Likely seems like they are down 1 or 2, maybe 3. I would expect 3N to have some play if partner reopens with a X, we can probably shut the preempter out (Frances is correct, as usual, if they have xx opp AKQxxx(x) they can duck the lead and we likely wont have 9 fast ones, but this is pretty much the only holding its possible as long as partner has a heart).

[PriorKnowledge]

Pass and then pass partner's X

 

If my partner reopens with a 5143 11-count, I better pass, because it is much more likely we'll get 5 tricks defending hearts than 9 tricks declaring NT. I pass even if I think partner will pass out with a min hand.

 

Do you really want to force to the 4m level with this hand by making a negative double? Do you really want to bid 3N opposite a min opener?

 

I'd rather pass out a 3H bd and hope to set it.

 

Hey - Sometimes preempts work

[Chamaco]

with 1444 (and a stopper) if I ever thought I had enough to have some confidence of making 3N, I would bid 3N.

Sure, but my question should basically read as:

"On which criteria do you base your evaluation that 3NT has better prospects than 3HX?" B)

[Al_U_Card]

Does anyone play negative doubles to 4D? I would negative double showing my 4-4 in the minors and 10 hcp.Since pard will know that I don't have a lot of S and rate to have a few H (even if my LHO raises to 4H) he will know what to do.

[Guest Jlall]

with 1444 (and a stopper) if I ever thought I had enough to have some confidence of making 3N, I would bid 3N.

Sure, but my question should basically read as:

"On which criteria do you base your evaluation that 3NT has better prospects than 3HX?" B)

That is my point, I don't base it on 3HX vs 3N. I base it on 3N vs 3N. If I think I have a fair shot at 3N, i'll bid it. I don't expect a reopening X so I won't trap with 4 trumps.

[Chamaco]

That is my point, I don't base it on 3HX vs 3N. I base it on 3N vs 3N. If I think I have a fair shot at 3N, i'll bid it. I don't expect a reopening X so I won't trap with 4 trumps.

Justin,

you mean you will never try to penalize opps in this sequence if you have 1-4-4-4 and invitational+ values ?

 

Is it either 3NT or 3H undoubled and never defend 3H doubled ?

 

I have to admit I'd find this rather surprising, but I am no expert so I won't argue further... B)

[Guest Jlall]

That is my point, I don't base it on 3HX vs 3N. I base it on 3N vs 3N. If I think I have a fair shot at 3N, i'll bid it. I don't expect a reopening X so I won't trap with 4 trumps.

Justin,

you mean you will never try to penalize opps in this sequence if you have 1-4-4-4 and invitational+ values ?

 

Is it either 3NT or 3H undoubled and never defend 3H doubled ?

 

I have to admit I'd find this rather surprising, but I am no expert so I won't argue further... B)

Again, I will not risk a pass if I think i have a shot at 3N. This doesn't mean I will never play for penalties.

 

x QJ9x Axxx Qxxx I would pass, and then pass a X. I do not think i have a good shot at 3N so will not bid it directly over 3H. If it goes all pass that is fine with me (though obviously I would have preferred a X).

 

If i had x QJ9x AKxx KJxx, I would bid 3N. It is too risky that partner will pass if I pass

[luis]

That is my point, I don't base it on 3HX vs 3N. I base it on 3N vs 3N. If I think I have a fair shot at 3N, i'll bid it. I don't expect a reopening X so I won't trap with 4 trumps.

Justin,

you mean you will never try to penalize opps in this sequence if you have 1-4-4-4 and invitational+ values ?

 

Is it either 3NT or 3H undoubled and never defend 3H doubled ?

 

I have to admit I'd find this rather surprising, but I am no expert so I won't argue further... B)

I'm also passing and will bid 3NT over pd reopening dbl so I'm in a 100% agreement with Justin. My reasons may differ so let me explain you why I do this and it may be interesting to know if Justin has different or similar motives.

 

In my partnerships we are encouraged to open light, a 1s opening can be specially light since we try not to pass when we have spades, if you can stablish a spade fit early the auction can be very difficult for your opponents.

Since we don't play penalty doubles when opener is short in the suit they overcall opener is forced to reopen with a double even with a light hand since I could have passed with a very strong hand when I have their suit. So we tend not to make a penalty pass of the reopening double when we really don't have strong holding in their suit and there's a good alternative.

In this hand 3NT may or may not make and 3h may or may not make but I'm sure that playing 3N is a safer alternative than leaving 3h doubled. This the sort of compromise you have to make when you have the style I describe.

[Chamaco]

Again, I will not risk a pass if I think i have a shot at 3N. This doesn't mean I will never play for penalties.

 

x QJ9x Axxx Qxxx I would pass, and then pass a X. I do not think i have a good shot at 3N so will not bid it directly over 3H. If it goes all pass that is fine with me (though obviously I would have preferred a X).

 

If i had x QJ9x AKxx KJxx, I would bid 3N. It is too risky that partner will pass if I pass

Sorry, Justin, I do not want to sound annoying, but I was not clear before, it's my fault.

 

My point is:

assume you have 1-4-4-4, with values insufficient to bid 3NT right away.

 

bidding goes:

1♠-(3♥)-pass-(pass)

DBL-(pass)-?

 

At THIS point (e.g. you do not risk no longer to leave 3H undoubled), say you have exactly 10 hcp in 1-4-4-4,

what are your considerations in terms of values and suit texture, in deciding whether to penalty pass or bid 3NT ?

[Guest Jlall]

would depend on my honor location, specifically in hearts, etc.