How do I make a game force support in partner's suit?

[mikl_plkcc]

After 1♥ - 1♠, I hold a maximum and want to make a forcing bid holding 5 ♥ and 4 ♠. What should I bid in Standard American? Should I just sign off at 4♠?

[Winstonm]

4S is not a “sign off” but a strength-showing bid. SA is not a system based on subtleties.

[Gilithin]

After 1♥ - 1♠, I hold a maximum and want to make a forcing bid holding 5 ♥ and 4 ♠. What should I bid in Standard American? Should I just sign off at 4♠?

The foundation for your question is fatally flawed - 4♠ is not a sign off.

[Stephen Tu]

With a GF you can bid 4S or splinter with 4c/4d. Game bids are never sign-offs when partner has not limited their strength.

[fromageGB]

Presumably by maximum, you mean "not good enough to make an immediate ace ask" but good enough for game opposite a 6 count? While 4♠ could express that, it is not a signoff because partner with a stronger hand, say 10+, would be entitled to go further.

 

That of course will commit to at least 5♠, so I reckon most regular partnerships would be able to show a strong hand in some other way with a conventional bid and keep the bidding lower. As far as I know SA is not prohibitive of that, and a Gazzilli 2♣ may be worth ad(a/o)pting if you have no short minor to splinter.

[P_Marlowe]

A common agreement is to use a 3NT response by opener as showing a semibal. gf

raise of partners major.

Having a forcing raise for responders major is useful, if you need to start a cue bidding

seq. to find out, if you control all suits.

 

The standard meaning of 3NT was long running suit, with shortage in partners suit.

Obviously this type would need now a different seq. to be shown.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Douglas43]

I play Acol, but similar principles apply.

Bidding 4♠ shows a hand about two tricks better than a minimum opening. You have already shown a decent hand by opening 1♥, so 4♠ here is a strong bid, not a shut-out or a pre-empt like 1♠ - 4♠

In a regular partnership with a 4-5-3-1 shape I would bid 4♣ or 4♦ as a splinter. But I might not risk it in a social game because some players use 4♣ as Gerber at unexpected times

[mikl_plkcc]

Presumably by maximum, you mean "not good enough to make an immediate ace ask" but good enough for game opposite a 6 count? While 4♠ could express that, it is not a signoff because partner with a stronger hand, say 10+, would be entitled to go further.

 

That of course will commit to at least 5♠, so I reckon most regular partnerships would be able to show a strong hand in some other way with a conventional bid and keep the bidding lower. As far as I know SA is not prohibitive of that, and a Gazzilli 2♣ may be worth ad(a/o)pting if you have no short minor to splinter.

Here means I have slam interest even if partner is a minimum, and I don't want the bidding to die at 4-level. I just want a forcing bid to set trumps such that I can start cuebidding in the next round.

[DavidKok]

Some people use Gazzilli on this auction. In a natural system you have splinters and 4♠, and some people also would assume 3NT is artificial. You can also bid a fake 3♣ as a GF, but this may backfire spectacularly. Other than that there are no good options.

[Gilithin]

Here means I have slam interest even if partner is a minimum, and I don't want the bidding to die at 4-level. I just want a forcing bid to set trumps such that I can start cuebidding in the next round.

Can you construct the hand that wants to do this opposite a 1♠ response that does not have a minor-suit shortage and would not have opened 2♣? I am sure we can come up with a solution if we see the problem.

[DavidKok]

Can you construct the hand that wants to do this opposite a 1♠ response that does not have a minor-suit shortage and would not have opened 2♣? I am sure we can come up with a solution if we see the problem.

♠KJTx, ♥AKJTx, ♦Ax, ♣Kx. I am extremely tempted to swap a small spade for the queen in this example, but I am worried about getting stuck debating the merits of the auction 2♣*-2♦*; 2♥-2NT/3♣*; 3♠.

[Douglas43]

♠KJTx, ♥AKJTx, ♦Ax, ♣Kx. I am extremely tempted to swap a small spade for the queen in this example, but I am worried about getting stuck debating the merits of the auction 2♣*-2♦*; 2♥-2NT/3♣*; 3♠.

 

I would settle for 4♠ on that, as ♠AQxx and out is enough for game, but needs plenty of work for slam? If 4=5=2=2 got above 20hcp, I might open 2NT.

[Gilithin]

♠KJTx, ♥AKJTx, ♦Ax, ♣Kx. I am extremely tempted to swap a small spade for the queen in this example, but I am worried about getting stuck debating the merits of the auction 2♣*-2♦*; 2♥-2NT/3♣*; 3♠.

And presumably the hand opposite is ♠AQxxx ♥Qx ♦xxx ♣Qxx? Let's take Marlowe's suggestion of 3NT as a forcing raise for a moment. How do you see the auction progressing after that if you think this hand is not worth moving beyond 4♠ opposite a GF raise?

[Douglas43]

This was a question about Standard American. Isn't 3NT just a strong balanced hand in StanAm?

[DavidKok]

There are plenty of solutions. Personally I play Gazzilli on this auction, which covers quite a few bases. I'm sure you have your own solutions and explanations of how good they are. My point was that in Standard American it is completely possible to get stuck. There are also 4=5=3=1 hands with singleton honour that are best served not splintering, for example.

 

Gilithin, I don't understand your question. I don't have a followup over 3NT artificial, I don't play it and I think it is sub-optimal. But someone playing SAYC might get some use out of that gadget. If you find a continuation please let me know.

[P_Marlowe]

And presumably the hand opposite is ♠AQxxx ♥Qx ♦xxx ♣Qxx? Let's take Marlowe's suggestion of 3NT as a forcing raise for a moment. How do you see the auction progressing after that if you think this hand is not worth moving beyond 4♠ opposite a GF raise?

You could make a 4H cue bid, assuming your first cue promises a top honor.

The Queen is not a top honor, but you know that partner has 5 hearts. i.e. the Queen will fill a hole.

The cue also denies top honors in clubs / diamonds, opener will have an easy stop in 4S, knowing the

partnership misses two Aces.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gilithin]

This was a question about Standard American. Isn't 3NT just a strong balanced hand in StanAm?

SA is not really a system so much as a family of methods. For the most part though, 1NT shows 12-14 and 2NT shows 18-19, leaving 3NT available for something else, usually a 1-suiter of some type.

 

 

There are plenty of solutions. Personally I play Gazzilli on this auction, which covers quite a few bases. I'm sure you have your own solutions and explanations of how good they are. My point was that in Standard American it is completely possible to get stuck. There are also 4=5=3=1 hands with singleton honour that are best served not splintering, for example.

 

Gilithin, I don't understand your question. I don't have a followup over 3NT artificial, I don't play it and I think it is sub-optimal. But someone playing SAYC might get some use out of that gadget. If you find a continuation please let me know.

The point I was making is that the gap between responding hands that would not make a move over 4♠ but would be able to provide some critical piece of information over some forcing raise is very small, much smaller than many other slam gaps in natural methods. And if you use some other sequence to cover this, you will make some other gap somewhere else wider if the bidding system is at all efficient. Of course the easy solution to most questions on making slam bidding more effective is to open 1♣. I can give you a dozen solutions from there.

 

 

You could make a 4H cue bid, assuming your first cue promises a top honor.

The Queen is not a top honor, but you know that partner has 5 hearts. i.e. the Queen will fill a hole.

The cue also denies top honors in clubs / diamonds, opener will have an easy stop in 4S, knowing the

partnership misses two Aces.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

For the vast majority of American pairs, control cue bids of this nature show first or second round control. It would after all be quite embarrassing to find that Opener held ♠KJxx ♥JT9xx ♦AK ♣AK and reach 6♠ missing ♥AK...

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

For the vast majority of American pairs, control cue bids of this nature show first or second round control. It would after all be quite embarrassing to find that Opener held ♠KJxx ♥JT9xx ♦AK ♣AK and reach 6♠ missing ♥AK...

Yes this can happen, and I do know,

that a cue showes 1st / 2nd round control, but quite often the Queen in partners known long suit is as valuable as a king.

Showing the Queen is a last resort.

[DavidKok]

Again another gadget could come to the rescue, but it is not Standard American. If you play Last Train the 4♥ rebid would not be a lie but a perfect description.

[johnu]

Here means I have slam interest even if partner is a minimum, and I don't want the bidding to die at 4-level. I just want a forcing bid to set trumps such that I can start cuebidding in the next round.

 

Does partner have a pulse, or do you have to overbid all the time in case partner has underbid once again???

[Winstonm]

This was a question about Standard American. Isn't 3NT just a strong balanced hand in StanAm?

 

Yes, it's an opening strong NT hand if it is responder's first bid. As opener, it shows a solid suit and 9 tricks as long as responder's bid suit is a stop.

[Winstonm]

Here means I have slam interest even if partner is a minimum, and I don't want the bidding to die at 4-level. I just want a forcing bid to set trumps such that I can start cuebidding in the next round.

You need to abandon Standard and adopt a forcing club system if you want the kind of accuracy you are after - but a warning, even then you will have a whole new set of problems with which to deal, including memory work and opponents interference.

[DavidKok]

I can understand wanting to abandon Standard, but why exactly is strong club a necessity?

[Winstonm]

I can understand wanting to abandon Standard, but why exactly is strong club a necessity?

I have never played forcing pass so I can’t say. But the best relay systems I am familiar with were all Precision. Howard Schenken spelled out the advantages of the forcing club so I won’t repeat his views as my own.

[DavidKok]

Very clever, but of course I meant that a full relay system is sufficient but not necessary to solve this particular problem. I mentioned Gazzilli, 3NT artificial and a fake 3♣ before, all of which may prove adequate in this situation.