Advancing without fit

[cherdano]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=s43haq86dj5cq9873]133|100|Scoring: MP

P-(1♦)-1♠-(P)

?[/hv]

What do you do over partner's 1♠ overcall?

 

Arend

[luis]

I bid 2♣, maximum passed hand with a club suit. I'm interested in clubs or hearts we may have a fit in any of those suits. Is this really complicated? :-)

[Guest Jlall]

I bid 1N showing some values and less than 3 spades. I do not bid 2C as neither my suit nor hand is good enough. If pard has 4 clubs or 4 hearts or 6 spades he will bid those next. Is this really that complicated? :-)

[Dean]

I pass.

 

Biggest pile of rubbish in a long time.

 

The only thing 2C has going for it is that it shows spade tolerance (passed hand and al)

[Guest Jlall]

I pass.

 

Biggest pile of rubbish in a long time.

 

The only thing 2C has going for it is that it shows spade tolerance (passed hand and al)

x

Axxx

xx

QJT9xx

 

?

 

I think a passed hand could easily have a 2C bid without spade tolerance

[Winstonm]

1N, but only because it is mps. I'm a passenger at imps, although I recognize there is some danger of missing a game - there also the chance of going minus when we should be plus, too. Couple of those -4 and -6 add up to a game in a hurry.

 

I have a pretty simple imp philosophy: go plus when you should and try to catch all your tricks.

 

If I can do those two things, I might not win the Bermuda Bowl but I'll be a formidable opponent for anyone.

 

WinstonM

[mike777]

1nt Jeff Reubens of Bridge World has been calling for this 4th seat type of bid for years and I am sold.

[Guest Jlall]

1N, but only because it is mps. I'm a passenger at imps, although I recognize there is some danger of missing a game - there also the chance of going minus when we should be plus, too. Couple of those -4 and -6 add up to a game in a hurry.

 

I have a pretty simple imp philosophy: go plus when you should and try to catch all your tricks.

 

If I can do those two things, I might not win the Bermuda Bowl but I'll be a formidable opponent for anyone.

 

WinstonM

Interesting, I would be more inclined to pass at MP than imps (but wouldnt pass at either) since missing a game is more of a disaster at imps than MP whereas protecting your plus score is more important at MP than imps (your argument was that 1N may get us too high when we had a plus score). I do think bidding is clear, pard can have as much as 17, can have a heart or club second suit, or could have just a balanced hand where 3N is cold etc. The only flaw with 1N in my mind is that we just have Jx of diamonds, but if partner passes, we know he does not have 6 spades, 4 hearts, or 4 clubs. If he is 5323 its obviously not good but 5332 (much more liekly given our shape) and 1N is probably as good as any. 5341 is a complete disaster for a 2C bid, and 5422 partner will often pass with Hx of clubs opposite a passed hand (I would think) which would make us miss hearts.

[Winstonm]

etc. The only flaw with 1N in my mind is that we just have Jx of diamonds

 

I rarely disagree with your thoughts, and here again I have no disagreement; many of my own posts, though, are based on my current partnership and in that I could not risk 1N as we do not have the tools to secondarily locate a "true" diamonds stop - or any other suit that the opps opened.

 

So what I have to look at is likelyhoods: we may miss game but not likely; we may get too high, but that is unlikely, too. Most of the time we will be in a partscore - at imps, it doesn't matter really if it's 1S making 110, 3H making 140, or 1N making 90; at mps it matters a great deal.

 

WinstonM

[Fluffy]

Could you 2 please stop agreeing with each other? its kinda boring :-P

 

I have too much to pass, no stopper for 1NT, too few for 2♣, I hate this problem, if I at least had a ♠ honnor I would just raise, but here I will jsut bid 2♣, and then complain to director for letting this hand be played when it has a impossible problem :D

[Guest Jlall]

so youre saying we agree in a disagreeable way?? :D

[PriorKnowledge]

There is no reason to bid unless passing will miss a game. So the decision is probably based on knowing your partner's style.

1) Does partner overcall 1S with a strong hand and a 6-card spade suit or a strong hand with 5s, 4h? Then we might miss 4M

2) Does partner overcall 1S with 5s, 4d and a strong hand or overcall 1N?

 

Most players would overcall 1S in those cases, so I think the risk of missing a game is worth taking a bid. And that bid is 1N. I'd want a better suit to bid 2C.

 

In my style, the 1N does not promise a diam stopper.

 

Even without a diam stopper, opps are unlikely to cash enough diam to set 1N.

 

If partner is interested in a NT game and has no diam stopper, partner can q-bid diam.

 

So the 1N advance does not much jeopardize our plus and leaves open the game possibilities in hearts, spades or NT.

[Guest Jlall]

As winston points out (sorry fluffy i gotta agree) bidding game isnt the only reason to bid, getting to the right partscore may be crucial. You may find a superior NT/club/heart partial by bidding. Or you may be an inferior 1N instead of 1S.

[HeartA]

Could you 2 please stop agreeing with each other? its kinda boring :-P

 

I have too much to pass, no stopper for 1NT, too few for 2♣, I hate this problem, if I at least had a ♠ honnor I would just raise, but here I will jsut bid 2♣, and then complain to director for letting this hand be played when it has a impossible problem :D

I agree with you, OK? :(

[EricK]

I wonder if there is some benefit in playing 1NT as semi-forcing in this auction. As a passed hand you will rarely have a hand where you are confident that 1NT is a better contract than potentially weak 1♠ overcall.

 

There are obviously some hands where the method won't work, but the same is true of all methods.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Eric

[Guest Jlall]

I have never understood the concept of semi forcing. It means partner will bid if he has shape or extras? That is the same with non forcing 1N as far as I know.

[mr1303]

The rule as I know it was that 1NT was forcing if opener has a full opening bid. If not, then he can pass.

 

It helps if you take the fit hands out of it though. Hence play drury.

[PriorKnowledge]

Semi-forcing 1N? I dunno... Actually... I think it already is, kinda, since the strength of the 1N is about 8-11 and mostly just denies 3+spades.

[luis]

I bid 1N showing some values and less than 3 spades. I do not bid 2C as neither my suit nor hand is good enough. If pard has 4 clubs or 4 hearts or 6 spades he will bid those next. Is this really that complicated? :-)

So much agreement is disgusting so I will disagree with you Justin.

 

First of all I can't imagine what else can you have as a passed hand so I don't understand how your hand can be "not good enough"

Second: Do you really think that at MPs pd will remove 1NT when he has 4 clubs or 4 hearts? If you have a balanced hand then he will probably want to play 1NT with many 5422 hands, some 5431 hands and all 5332 hands. There're many chances of missing a much better contract and even a game bidding 1NT.

 

I respect a lot the 1NT bidders at MPs but I think it's too creative, even when 2c leads to a bad result it will be probably average since 2♣ is a pedrestrian bid while 1NT is a "I'm a MPs wizard" bid.

 

Bah, it's fun to disagree I really wouldn't mind that much if my pd bid 1NT on that collection, specially when I'd bid 2♣, it's nice to know you get different results depending on who is north and who is south, makes the game more spicy.

[Fluffy]

I like the 5-2 fit in MP, problem is I have around 20% chances of playing on a 4-2 fit in 1♠ with my partner.

 

The idea of a 1NT forcing is interesting, the problem is... do you want your partner to bid 2♦ with 3 cards? B).

 

Now Ithink of it , mabe partnerwill pass when he has a 2♦ rebid to a forcing NT, maybe it can work.

[mikestar]

I have never understood the concept of semi forcing. It means partner will bid if he has shape or extras? That is the same with non forcing 1N as far as I know.

The difference in the (badly named) "semi-forcing" 1NT response and a non-forcing 1NT is that the semi-focring vairety may have game invitational values (the range is about 6-12), while the traditional NF variety may not (the range is 6-10). So opener with a 14 count playable in NT can pass a NF 1NT but must find a bid over a SF 1NT.

 

Personally, I don't care for semi-foricng 1N and prefer it forcing over a major opening--if the NT has a doubleton, the major will ususally play as well of better, if he has a stiff the contract probably belongs in another suit. The thing I hate about the SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx.

[Guest Jlall]

I bid 1N showing some values and less than 3 spades. I do not bid 2C as neither my suit nor hand is good enough. If pard has 4 clubs or 4 hearts or 6 spades he will bid those next. Is this really that complicated? :-)

So much agreement is disgusting so I will disagree with you Justin.

 

First of all I can't imagine what else can you have as a passed hand so I don't understand how your hand can be "not good enough"

Second: Do you really think that at MPs pd will remove 1NT when he has 4 clubs or 4 hearts? If you have a balanced hand then he will probably want to play 1NT with many 5422 hands, some 5431 hands and all 5332 hands. There're many chances of missing a much better contract and even a game bidding 1NT.

 

I respect a lot the 1NT bidders at MPs but I think it's too creative, even when 2c leads to a bad result it will be probably average since 2♣ is a pedrestrian bid while 1NT is a "I'm a MPs wizard" bid.

 

Bah, it's fun to disagree I really wouldn't mind that much if my pd bid 1NT on that collection, specially when I'd bid 2♣, it's nice to know you get different results depending on who is north and who is south, makes the game more spicy.

sure I would expect him to remove 1N with 5422. I don't think it's a MP bid either as I would bid it at imps, or rubber bridge, or BAM or anything. I think it is the bid most likely to get us to the best contract. Not always of course, but thats just my opinion.

 

My passed hands can be much better than this in playability for 2C. I would consider xx Axx xx KQTxxx a normal pass but that is a MUCH better hand than this one. It is also a much better suit. Those would be the types of hands I would bid 2C on.

[Guest Jlall]

I have never understood the concept of semi forcing. It means partner will bid if he has shape or extras? That is the same with non forcing 1N as far as I know.

The difference in the (badly named) "semi-forcing" 1NT response and a non-forcing 1NT is that the semi-focring vairety may have game invitational values (the range is about 6-12), while the traditional NF variety may not (the range is 6-10). So opener with a 14 count playable in NT can pass a NF 1NT but must find a bid over a SF 1NT.

 

Personally, I don't care for semi-foricng 1N and prefer it forcing over a major opening--if the NT has a doubleton, the major will ususally play as well of better, if he has a stiff the contract probably belongs in another suit. The thing I hate about the SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx.

oh i see, semi forcing is the same as non forcing except that partner must bid 14 5332 in semi forcing...thats a really useful distinction B)

[mike777]

I have never understood the concept of semi forcing. It means partner will bid if he has shape or extras? That is the same with non forcing 1N as far as I know.

The difference in the (badly named) "semi-forcing" 1NT response and a non-forcing 1NT is that the semi-focring vairety may have game invitational values (the range is about 6-12), while the traditional NF variety may not (the range is 6-10). So opener with a 14 count playable in NT can pass a NF 1NT but must find a bid over a SF 1NT.

 

Personally, I don't care for semi-foricng 1N and prefer it forcing over a major opening--if the NT has a doubleton, the major will ususally play as well of better, if he has a stiff the contract probably belongs in another suit. The thing I hate about the SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx.

If you open all junky 5332 11-12 hcp hands, playing semi-force 1nt lets you out in 1nt. Constructive raises get you out at 2 of a major. Note 1nt response over major can be stronger than most 2/1 or sayc here.

 

"SF 1NT is hearing 1♠-1NT-P when I have x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx"

 

Not sure what you mean by your example hand, with forcing nt do you expect p to often rebid 3 card minors? With 4 card minor everyone will get to 2H.

We play BART over 1S=1NT=2C, 2c here may be 3 or 2 but that is somewhat rare.

[PriorKnowledge]

oh i see, semi forcing is the same as non forcing except that partner must bid 14 5332 in semi forcing...thats a really useful distinction B)

Morph Alert!

 

Yes! Exactly! Opener can pass a semi-forcing with a 12-13 5332 hand, but must rebid on anything else.

 

Some feel the ability to play a 1N contract or get the opps to come in blind at the 2-level is worth modifying your system. Maybe it's the stress of playing all those 4-3 minor suit 8 tricks contracts when 7 NT tricks were there.