How to game force with an overcall

[thepossum]

Hi all

 

Suppose you have a GF single suiter (8-9 tricks etc) over a minor suit opening, and a rather disappointing cautious partner prone to passing with a good hand

Suppose also you dislike psyching too much, or disapprove or feel you have used up your psyche for the day

 

What do you do

 

Thanks

P

[smerriman]

Playing with humans, if you're too strong to overcall, start with a double then override partner's choice to bid some number of your suit. What too strong to overcall means depends on the exact hand; if you're short in a major, expect partner will be bidding or even jumping in that suit, so make sure you can follow up properly.

 

Playing with GIB, you have no hope of any sensible bidding sequence since it doesn't understand basic logic here. Probably just lie, show a weak hand by preempting to game and hope you didn't miss slam.

[Winstonm]

1.Bid game in your suit.

2. Bid Michaels then bid game in your suit

3. Double, then bid game in your suit.

4. Tell your partner you don’t play Michaels so direct cue bids are game forces. Then bid your suit after you cue bid.

 

Basically this is just like playing in a cut-for-partners rubber bridge game by at the golf course. You make pragmatic choices.

[thepossum]

Thankyou

 

I considered some of those different options. I haven't been left in low level overcall option often but it has happened from time to time with GiB

 

I was reading about reasons for strong overcalls going out of fashion. I know they don't happen often but they do from time to time

 

I should just use psyche preempts more

 

I should put up a hand that worked out nicely yesterday when I gambled on a 5 level cue bid over a preempt which worked and not dwell on negatives

[Winstonm]

Thankyou

 

I considered some of those different options. I haven't been left in low level overcall option often but it has happened from time to time with GiB

 

I was reading about reasons for strong overcalls going out of fashion. I know they don't happen often but they do from time to time

 

I should just use psyche preempts more

 

I should put up a hand that worked out nicely yesterday when I gambled on a 5 level cue bid over a preempt which worked and not dwell on negatives

 

I used to play jump overcalls were weak, intermediate, or strong depending on vulnerability. I still find that a useful method.

[Gilithin]

Wrong forum, please remove.

[thepossum]

This post intentionally left blank

[thepossum]

Here is the hand if anyone is interested

 

Only scored -3. Could have been much worse

 

And I think I missed an overtrick.

 

Could any of the assembled brains trust advise what a beginner should do sitting North

Given the possible shapes and strength for a 1 spade overcall I felt pass was disappointing

 

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[Douglas43]

Yes this looks like a double then 4♠ hand, but I might bid 4♠ direct opposite a passed partner.

 

7-2-2-2 is not quite as good as it looks. North and West have not more than 11 hcp between them and you probably need North to have two Aces for slam. As the actual defence shows you need quite a lot opposite to make a slam solid. Six can be made on a minor suit lead. You win AD, CKQ, D ruff, JS, AC pitching heart, concede a heart. This works if clubs are 3-3 or the hand with two clubs has only got one trump. Don't know if I'd find that line at the table though .

 

I wouldn't call bidding 4♠ here psyching a pre-empt, for me it just shows a hand that wants to bid 4♠ and has no slam ambitions, a bit like a 4♠ opening opposite a passed partner.

[thepossum]

I regard it as a psych using the system GiB plays. Its defined as a weak jump

 

I think I checked every possible bid for one that came close. I guess I was asking for trouble since I think I had one more point than the 8-17 point overcall range defined

 

Its all my fault :)

 

But at least I didn't end up in 7

[Gilithin]

I regard it as a psych using the system GiB plays. Its defined as a weak jump

There is quite a bit of difference between (1♦) - 4♠ and P - (1♦) - 4♠ even though the overarching meaning is the same. The general principle is that you make the bid when you do not want to bid constructively, meaning that the range for 4♠ is much wider in the second auction than the first. That said, this is a hand that I would feel I was underbidding if I opened it with a Benji/SEF/Forum D 2♣ - 9 PTs! It is good enough that we could easily have a grand on a hand partner would pass, so I think Double is a better option than the immediate 4♠. I would not just X and bid though - the hand is too good for that. X and 4♠ is an option, as Douglas suggests; X and cue is another. North bid impeccably, there is no reason to expect partner to have a hand like this for a simple 1♠ overcall so allowing for it would be foolish. Some Easts would have doubled back in, which would have given you a second chance, but GIB is made of sterner stuff.

[hrothgar]

I'm not sure what psyches have to do with any of this...

 

The hand is question seems like an obvious double, followed by bidding spades

[pescetom]

Six can be made on a minor suit lead. You win AD, CKQ, D ruff, JS, AC pitching heart, concede a heart. This works if clubs are 3-3 or the hand with two clubs has only got one trump. Don't know if I'd find that line at the table though .

 

I would have got it wrong for sure.

Six can also be made on a trump lead, in much the same way.

[johnu]

I'm not sure what psyches have to do with any of this...

 

The hand is question seems like an obvious double, followed by bidding spades

 

Playing with a human, that's good advice. Playing with GIB, one should never double with a strong one suited hand. With a spade shortage, GIB will insist on trying to be declarer with a bad 4 or 5 card suit. If you decide on the auction to just bid a game, GIB will play you for 26-32 HCP and raise to slam with a misfit and some random quacks and honors in opener's suit.

[Douglas43]

I would have got it wrong for sure.

Six can also be made on a trump lead, in much the same way.

 

Oh yes, I had missed that, thanks!

[smerriman]

I guess I was asking for trouble since I think I had one more point than the 8-17 point overcall range defined

By the way, as I referred to earlier, whether you overcall or double isn't just about point count at all.

 

If your RHO opens 1♣ and you have - KQJ98 KQ5 AKJ76, a 1♥ overcall is pretty clearcut (both with and without GIB), despite having 19 HCP (and a K&R value of over 22).

[pilowsky]

I thought we put that to bed last year. You cannot psych a robot.

The essence of a psych. is that you create in the mind of your opponent a false impression.

How exactly do you create a false impression in the 'mind' of a computer program?

The correct bid in a best hand robot tourney is 4S and hope for the best.

[Winstonm]

In Santa Barbara in 1975 vulnerable against vulnerable I held in 3rd seat xx, xxx, QJxx, xxxx and after two passes opened 1S.

 

That was a psyche.

[pilowsky]

In Santa Barbara in 1975 vulnerable against vulnerable I held in 3rd seat xx, xxx, QJxx, xxxx and after two passes opened 1S.

 

That was a psyche.

 

Was your partner's name Cupid?

[thepossum]

I thought we put that to bed last year. You cannot psych a robot.

The essence of a psych. is that you create in the mind of your opponent a false impression.

How exactly do you create a false impression in the 'mind' of a computer program?

The correct bid in a best hand robot tourney is 4S and hope for the best.

 

I know you clearly cannot psych a bot - but my Turing tests are ongoing

 

However you can clearly mislead one with any bid that grossly misstates the strength and shape of your hand :)

 

And I imagine, given the lack of flexibility inherent in most automation it is easier to psych a bot than a human in that sense

 

I do sometimes get very concerned at the state of mind of one of the bots. Some days I appear to be playing Marvin the Android and give up. Its so sad. Brain the size of a planet and it has to play GiB 2/1 day after day

 

9/10 days I would just have bid 4S and not even considered alternatives. But sometimes you like to mix it up a bit :) Maybe I'm losing my touch or interest in bot bridge

[rcarle]

Hi all

 

Suppose you have a GF single suiter (8-9 tricks etc) over a minor suit opening, and a rather disappointing cautious partner prone to passing with a good hand

Suppose also you dislike psyching too much, or disapprove or feel you have used up your psyche for the day

 

What do you do

 

Thanks

P

I am a beginner and I believe I am in a beginner's forum but all the posters here seem to be advanced. What am I doing wrong? Thx

[Douglas43]

Hi rcarle, more experienced players try to help by contributing but can sometimes get carried away. A reminder like yours never goes amiss.

 

By the way, I have posted a few example hands for our local improvers (and anyone else who wants a look), just search the forum for "Manx" if you want to take a look.

[thepossum]

I am a beginner and I believe I am in a beginner's forum but all the posters here seem to be advanced. What am I doing wrong? Thx

 

I'm not advanced. I've been playing a long time, but still very basic, as you can see from my bidding and play sometimes :)

 

But I am sure you are doing nothing wrong. This forum does tend to be one of the more advanced on the site. I don't know why

 

I try to give beginners and novices a bit of hope with some of my threads :)

 

EDIT I should add that the reason I avoid the Intermediate forum is that people like me have to mix with Advanced players on their forum