What to assume?

[Deanrover]

RHO opens 4♠, which gets passed around to your p who doubles. This is an individual tournament and you have never played with your p before. What factors govern whether you take his bid for t/o or for pens?

[fifee]

Deanrover, depends on my hand and the vulnerability.

 

As far as I am concerned, if my pd makes a double at 4S or above, he is willing to sit for it if I think that's right.

[Guest Jlall]

he has a good hand. He does not have a trump stack. Pull with distribution if you think you can make at 5 lev otherwise pass.

[Deanrover]

he has a good hand. He does not have a trump stack. Pull with distribution if you think you can make at 5 lev otherwise pass.

Why do you assume he doesn't have a trump stack? If I was playing with a regular partner I'd interpret his bid thus, but playing with a random?

[keylime]

In an indy I'm assuming pard's double is 70-80 percent penalty. When in doubt, pass....

[helene_t]

Partner usually has a ballanced or 3-suited hand with one or two spades and approximately three quick tricks. Assume that his support for your suit exceeds his spades length with two or three (most often three). Then apply the LOTT to see if 4♠ is enough down when you can make a contract at the 5-level or the 6-level, respectively.

 

If you're broke, just pass and hope partner has four defensive tricks. Except with a freak distribution.

[luke warm]

playing takeout doubles thru 7♠, as ben does, solves your problem... like all t/o x's it can be passed, but it's for t/o

[Fluffy]

just take out.

[cherdano]

he has a good hand. He does not have a trump stack. Pull with distribution if you think you can make at 5 lev otherwise pass.

Why do you assume he doesn't have a trump stack? If I was playing with a regular partner I'd interpret his bid thus, but playing with a random?

Let's say 50% of all players think this double shows a trump stack, and 50% think it shows a good hand that is likely to beat 4S, but also has chances to make s.th. at the 5-level. The latter half will double much more often, so if your partner doubled, chances are he belongs to them.

 

Arend

[PriorKnowledge]

The modern expert interpretation of high-level doubles like this is Offensive. That means if the bidding goes 4S p p and you have a trump stack, you just pass and take your plus score. Save the doubles for Offensive hands. Think about it: How often will an opponent have an 8-card suit and you have a trump stack and KNOW that penalty double is the best course of action? Compare that to how often an oppenent will have an 8-card suit, you have a big hand, no suit of your own, and you don't know what to do?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Double is takeout, but with an "optional" flavour.

 

I will tend to let it stand.

 

Pointers for for deciding so

 

- If I am broke and have a fairly flat shape, -790 may not

be the end of the world, at least if I compare this with

likely scores I may receive playing on the 5 level.

 

- If they are red and we are green

- Equal vulnerability

- Defensive tricks

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

Anyone who makes assumptions in an individual about the meaning of a balancing double is going to be surprised a lot. When you sit down in an individual, don;t ask what your partner plays (he probably doesn't know). Tell him something simple, including the meaning of doubles.. Say something like, SAYC, all doubles above xxx (you fill in the xxx's), are penalty. Then you will know. In an individual, go with something safe, like 2S or 3S.

 

And yes, I play all doubles before fit is found as takeout, but in an individual, I don't get to play what I like... :-(

 

Ben

[mikestar]

Takeout per Robson Segal guideline: all doubles are for takeout until we have found our fit. However, this takeout double will be passed more often than not--LOTT suggests you need an expectation of 20 total trumps to take it out (unless you are strong enough that slam is likely.)

[mr1303]

YOu hold:

 

QTxx

void

xxx

Txxxxx

 

bidding goes:

 

(4H) X (P) to you

 

should you pass, and hope partner has a good enough hand to beat it, or take it out?

[PriorKnowledge]

When in doubt, pass....

BTW, this is a very poor policy, because some players are ALWAYS in doubt. :ph34r:

I think the first question you should ask yourself in a confusing auction is, "Can I pass?"

[mike777]

YOu hold:

 

QTxx

void

xxx

Txxxxx

 

bidding goes:

 

(4H) X (P) to you

 

should you pass, and hope partner has a good enough hand to beat it, or take it out?

4s easy

 

P has asked me to bid not pass.

 

Does that mean p must pass with AKQJ of hearts, YES.

[inquiry]

YOu hold:

 

QTxx

void

xxx

Txxxxx

 

bidding goes:

 

(4H) X (P) to you

 

should you pass, and hope partner has a good enough hand to beat it, or take it out?

I would be VERY unhappy if my parnter passed my takeout double with no tricks and no cards in their suit.

 

I know some people who play DSIP kind of doubles here, where they make doubles with legnth (for penalty) or with shortness (for takeout). The theory goes, parntner can look at the number of cards he holds in the doubled suit to determine what the double meant. But sometimes, teh opponents have 7-5. 8-4. 6-6, or 7-6 fits and if your guessing what the double means, you will guess totally wrong. Bitter experience shows these --- you figure out what I got kind of take out doubles are not good at all.

 

Ben

[P_Marlowe]

YOu hold:

 

QTxx

void

xxx

Txxxxx

 

bidding goes:

 

(4H) X (P) to you

 

should you pass, and hope partner has a good enough hand to beat it, or take it out?

This is easy

 

4S.

 

Switch the mayors => 5C.

 

Marlowe

[Al_U_Card]

Is not DBL for penalty and 4NT is take out of a 4S opening bid? Where is the confusion? No matter what you have, pard has spoken and you don't need to contribute any tricks to his penalty double. :rolleyes:

[mike777]

Is not DBL for penalty and 4NT is take out of a 4S opening bid?  Where is the confusion? No matter what you have, pard has spoken and you don't need to contribute any tricks to his penalty double. :rolleyes:

No it means they have a good hand not a trump stack. Pull with distribution otherwise sit. Partner does not have to bid 4nt with every 2344 or 1444 hand. With flat partner it may be better to defend but with dist partner it may be better to play.

[Al_U_Card]

No it means they have a good hand not a trump stack

It doesn't mean anything other than he wants to penalize 4S and he feels his hand is worth 4 sure tricks.......he has 4NT for takeout if he wanted to hear from you.

[Guest Jlall]

When have you ever had a trump stack when they've opened 4S?

[cherdano]

Is not DBL for penalty and 4NT is take out of a 4S opening bid? Where is the confusion? No matter what you have, pard has spoken and you don't need to contribute any tricks to his penalty double. :rolleyes:

US standard is X=takeout, and 4NT = 2-suited takeout.

 

Arend

[Blofeld]

Surely the normal meaning for 4NT over 4♠ is showing two places to play and forcibly denying any interest in penalising them?

 

I would automatically assume that the double of 4♠ was takeout. This is possibly idealistic ... I believe that the double should be takeout, so I treat it as such. I want to encourage people to play it as such and in particular I really don't want to punish a partner who has bid it as takeout.

 

---

 

While I'd bid 4♠ on the hand Mark posted, I'm not sure that I'd follow Marlowe's lead in bidding 5♣ with the majors reversed. There I would at least be sorely tempted to pass. I'm not sure which the better action is.

[JSilver]

Is not DBL for penalty and 4NT is take out of a 4S opening bid? 

This is also my understanding. I don't expect partner to have a trump stack--rather a balanced hand with 4-6 quick tricks.

 

"No matter what you have, pard has spoken and you don't need to contribute any tricks to his penalty double. :rolleyes:"

 

However, I'd consider pulling it if I had a long suit and no defense, since some of his tricks may not cash and we might be able to make 5 of my suit.