Parade of Morons

[Winstonm]

Anchors Away

 

The Navy has begun kicking out sailors who refuse to get the Covid-19 vaccine, but it won’t slap dishonorable discharges on anyone for their decision to ignore a direct order.

[Chas_P]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[Cyberyeti]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 

Liberty is two sided. My liberty not to be infected by an irresponsible idiot conflicts with your liberty not to take any anti Covid precautions. These situations tend to end up legislated, you can't work in certain jobs without certain vaccinations already (at least here in the UK) and I have no problem with Covid being added to the list of required jabs. There are now VERY few people who can't be jabbed (who deserve all possible support) but those that can but won't be are showing that they are not responsible members of society and don't deserve to be treated as such.

 

In my own case, nobody could tell me whether the jab was safe, the research simply hadn't been done for the issue I have, I have had 3 jabs now thankfully without incident as I decided I had to take that risk to be able to move around in society with a clear conscience.

 

PS - I wonder how the "He wouldn't wear a mask, he was breathing all over me, I felt threatened so I shot him" defence would go in court, I suspect fine as long as you were white and the other guy wasn't.

[Winstonm]

Liberty is two sided. My liberty not to be infected by an irresponsible idiot conflicts with your liberty not to take any anti Covid precautions. These situations tend to end up legislated, you can't work in certain jobs without certain vaccinations already (at least here in the UK) and I have no problem with Covid being added to the list of required jabs. There are now VERY few people who can't be jabbed (who deserve all possible support) but those that can but won't be are showing that they are not responsible members of society and don't deserve to be treated as such.

 

In my own case, nobody could tell me whether the jab was safe, the research simply hadn't been done for the issue I have, I have had 3 jabs now thankfully without incident as I decided I had to take that risk to be able to move around in society with a clear conscience.

 

PS - I wonder how the "He wouldn't wear a mask, he was breathing all over me, I felt threatened so I shot him" defence would go in court, I suspect fine as long as you were white and the other guy wasn't.

On this side of the pond, we are blessed with an abundance of fools who confuse slogans with axioms, bumper stickers with facts. These are the people who argue they should be allowed to fire rifle shots blindly into the air if they want, and if the bullets kill, well that's a shame but liberty trumps public safety; besides, those who were struck by a stray bullet that they had no idea was heading their way should have been more careful.

[pilowsky]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Those who quote clever people really ought to make an attempt to understand what the quote means.

Or is this one of those bits of "American humour" that I don't understand"?

From NPR (not Fox)

 

WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

 

SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

 

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.

 

[Chas_P]

In August I bought a substantial chunk of Pfizer (PFE) @$45.23. It closed today @$61.26. Needless to say, I am a huge fan of vaccines. OTOH I am a huge fan of those who, for whatever reason, refuse to take it. It's the American way. You, and others like you, can take Ben Franklin's comment as you wish. I'll take it as I wish. “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

[kenberg]

Those who quote clever people really ought to make an attempt to understand what the quote means.

Or is this one of those bits of "American humour" that I don't understand"?

From NPR (not Fox)

 

WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

 

SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

 

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.

 

 

First I am impressed and second, which perhaps should be first, thanks.

But now, and I read the whole NPR thing, I have some thoughts, or I am trying to.

 

"Those" is a pronoun, referring to the Penns? Assuming this is so, what "essential liberty" were they willing to exchange for "safety"? Or does "Those" refer to those who are willing to trade the right to tax in exchange for an immediate gift from the Penns? I guess that's it. Not for the first time, I am not really sure what Franklin was saying. He liked these very wise sayings.

 

Quoting wise sayings is usually folly, partly as you show above, but also simply on general principles.

 

My favorite quote has always been "A lot of the things I said I didn't say". Some Bear said that. Of course, he might or might not have said it. We could update this to "A lot of the things I said didn't mean what they claim I meant".

 

"Take the vaccine or live alone in a cave and stay there." That makes perfect sense, requires no historical research, and is very clear.

 

We are in for another really tough round with covid, in large part because a bunch of idiots are happily going about spreading it. The American way? I sure as hell hope it's not the American way. It's a suicidal way.

 

Suicide is a choice. Taking the rest of along on a suicide pack? No. Get the vaccine or withdraw permanently from society. Those are allowed choices. Serving as a carrier of the disease because no one can tell you to get the vaccine is not an allowed choice. Or it shouldn't be.

[pilowsky]

I'll take it as I wish.

 

Sure why not.

After all alternative facts appear to be the "American way" as well.

How about the American way of:

 

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Or does that only apply to certain people?

[pilowsky]

First I am impressed and second, which perhaps should be first, thanks.

But now, and I read the whole NPR thing, I have some thoughts, or I am trying to.

 

"Those" is a pronoun, referring to the Penns? Assuming this is so, what "essential liberty" were they willing to exchange for "safety"? Or does "Those" refer to those who are willing to trade the right to tax in exchange for an immediate gift from the Penns? I guess that's it. Not for the first time, I am not really sure what Franklin was saying. He liked these very wise sayings.

 

Quoting wise sayings is usually folly, partly as you show above, but also simply on general principles.

 

My favorite quote has always been "A lot of the things I said I didn't say". Some Bear said that. Of course, he might or might not have said it. We could update this to "A lot of the things I said didn't mean what they claim I meant".

 

"Take the vaccine or live alone in a cave and stay there." That makes perfect sense, requires no historical research, and is very clear.

 

We are in for another really tough round with covid, in large part because a bunch of idiots are happily going about spreading it. The American way? I sure as hell hope it's not the American way. It's a suicidal way.

 

Suicide is a choice. Taking the rest of along on a suicide pack? No. Get the vaccine or withdraw permanently from society. Those are allowed choices. Serving as a carrier of the disease because no one can tell you to get the vaccine is not an allowed choice. Or it shouldn't be.

The really strange thing is that none of it makes any sense. Vaccine mandates are a part of US culture.

When I visited UNC my children were initially refused admission to the local school because they didn't have all the necessary vaccinations.

At the same time we were jokingly (I assumed at the time) being informed about the war of northern aggression.

What is new is the nexus between vaccination and politics.

Australia is not short of strange ideas - just look at our Prime Minister - but as of today 90% of the population aged 16+ are vaccinated.

Here's a link to a Masters thesis relating the US response to the influenza pandemic.

 

[Chas_P]

Sure why not.

After all alternative facts appear to be the "American way" as well.

How about the American way of:

 

[/size]

Or does that only apply to certain people?

 

Ah, yes. Utopia. Maybe some day. I doubt neither you nor I will be around to see it. But maybe someday.

[kenberg]

The really strange thing is that none of it makes any sense. Vaccine mandates are a part of US culture.

When I visited UNC my children were initially refused admission to the local school because they didn't have all the necessary vaccinations.

At the same time we were jokingly (I assumed at the time) being informed about the war of northern aggression.

What is new is the nexus between vaccination and politics.

Australia is not short of strange ideas - just look at our Prime Minister - but as of today 90% of the population aged 16+ are vaccinated.

Here's a link to a Masters thesis relating the US response to the influenza pandemic.

 

 

Your first sentence says it all. It makes no sense. various plagues and epidemics have come and gone and while perhaps some nut in one place or another thought we should just let people spread it around as they see fit, the nut was surely seen as a nut. It's impossible to imagine Franklin, or Jefferson, or Madison or most anyone from farmer to statesman saying "Oh sure, we wouldn't want to trample on his rights, let him spread away".

 

I realize I have overstated a bit in saying the unvaccinated must live in a cave. What is needed is a very broad agreement that vaccinations are a must unless there are very specific individual reasons to the contrary. A person who, for some reason, can't cope with a vaccination needs to accept that this poses a problem and that he is then expected to cooperate in some way to help solve that problem. I can be accepting of special circumstances. But the argument that everyone has a right to just go around spreading disease pushes the argument for exceptional cases aside.

 

I regard myself as tolerant of views different from my own, but there are special cases, and a pandemic is a special case. As you say, the argument that people can just choose not to cooperate in coping with a pandemic that has caused massive harm, death, sickness, lost jobs, overwhelmed hospitals, and just say "I have my rights" makes no sense at all. There is no way, historical or moral or rational, for this to make sense. And I feel silly arguing about such a stupid claim.

 

So I hope we can move on to other aspects of the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

[Winstonm]

Your first sentence says it all. It makes no sense. various plagues and epidemics have come and gone and while perhaps some nut in one place or another thought we should just let people spread it around as they see fit, the nut was surely seen as a nut. It's impossible to imagine Franklin, or Jefferson, or Madison or most anyone from farmer to statesman saying "Oh sure, we wouldn't want to trample on his rights, let him spread away".

 

I realize I have overstated a bit in saying the unvaccinated must live in a cave. What is needed is a very broad agreement that vaccinations are a must unless there are very specific individual reasons to the contrary. A person who, for some reason, can't cope with a vaccination needs to accept that this poses a problem and that he is then expected to cooperate in some way to help solve that problem. I can be accepting of special circumstances. But the argument that everyone has a right to just go around spreading disease pushes the argument for exceptional cases aside.

 

I regard myself as tolerant of views different from my own, but there are special cases, and a pandemic is a special case. As you say, the argument that people can just choose not to cooperate in coping with a pandemic that has caused massive harm, death, sickness, lost jobs, overwhelmed hospitals, and just say "I have my rights" makes no sense at all. There is no way, historical or moral or rational, for this to make sense. And I feel silly arguing about such a stupid claim.

 

So I hope we can move on to other aspects of the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the refusal to receive vaccinations has become a co-equal problem with the virus itself. The chain of infection has to be interrupted, and vaccinations do that. That the remarkable speed at which vaccines became available was wasted because of political expediency is tragic - and that problem continues.

[Winstonm]

An Italian anti-vaxxer and COVID-denier who sparked outrage after declaring himself a "plague spreader" and boasting about how he walked around sick and maskless in a supermarket has died of COVID-19, according to local media reports.

 

Maurizio Buratti, also known as Mauro from Mantua, died in a Verona hospital Monday, just a few weeks after being hospitalized. He was 61.

 

 

La dolce stupido

[johnu]

An Italian anti-vaxxer and COVID-denier who sparked outrage after declaring himself a "plague spreader" and boasting about how he walked around sick and maskless in a supermarket has died of COVID-19, according to local media reports.

 

Maurizio Buratti, also known as Mauro from Mantua, died in a Verona hospital Monday, just a few weeks after being hospitalized. He was 61.

La dolce stupido

I was trying to think of a few words of condolence, but the only thing that comes to mind is "Good Riddance".

[kenberg]

There are a small number of people that I know first hand who will not take the vaccine, and a bigger group that are friends or relatives of friends rejectnig masks and vaccines. I accept that there is nothing I can do directly about this.

If a construction worker shows up drunk, he is not allowed to operate the fork lift. He has a constitutional right to drink, he does not have a right to endanger the rest of us. This philosphy tranfers pretty well. If someone insists he has a right to reject the vaccine and to not wear a mask, perhaps that is so. He does not have a right to endanger the rest of us. He can stay home, no vaccine, no mask, no contact with anyone.

 

I am not up for wishing bad for anyone, and we don't have to. We need to protect ourselves. That is a serious need.

[johnu]

If someone insists he has a right to reject the vaccine and to not wear a mask, perhaps that is so. He does not have a right to endanger the rest of us. He can stay home, no vaccine, no mask, no contact with anyone.

I see little difference between somebody who deliberately goes out in public knowing they are infected with Covid and not wearing a mask, and those who spread anti-vax, anti-mask, pro-Covid Qonspiracy theories to their fellow weak minded stooges.

[Winstonm]

I think John has a point as the mass rejection of vaccines is based in large part on group identity - these are not individuals saying I have the right ; they are half lemmings half parrot marching toward the ledge while claiming it is “our” right.

[kenberg]

Sure. But the question is: What to do?

A lemming today will be a lemming tomorrow.

So give up on trying to change them, just bottle them up somewhere.

[johnu]

Sure. But the question is: What to do?

A lemming today will be a lemming tomorrow.

So give up on trying to change them, just bottle them up somewhere.

We need to fund and build plenty of road signs pointing to the nearest seaside cliffs.

[Winstonm]

Sure. But the question is: What to do?

A lemming today will be a lemming tomorrow.

So give up on trying to change them, just bottle them up somewhere.

Send them on an all expense paid vacation to Guyana and cross our fingers that another Jim Jones is the head lemming?

 

On a serious note I think we need to ask out loud those we interact with if they are vaccinated - if they are not we should loudly refuse to do business with them and loudly explain why that is our decision

[pilowsky]

The game has changed in Australia.

It looks like Omicron is now endemic with an estimated 1 in 5-10 positivity rate.

At this level of infectivity - the unvaccinated are on their own and no longer the problem for the vaccinated.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the risk of serious illness is low and death very low.

I haven't seen actual data yet but the politicians here are now redefining a close contact as a person who has been in the same room as a confirmed case for more than 4 hours!

 

At the same time our Education Minister has decided not to fund 6 competitively awarded grants because he knows better.

[johnu]

The game has changed in Australia.

It looks like Omicron is now endemic with an estimated 1 in 5-10 positivity rate.

At this level of infectivity - the unvaccinated are on their own and no longer the problem for the vaccinated.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the risk of serious illness is low and death very low.

I just saw an R0 estimate for Omicron as 10, while Delta was 7 and the original strain was ~2.

 

While serious illness and death from Omicron appears to be less than Delta, the sheer numbers of people getting infected means that hospitals are being flooded with mostly unvaccinated anti-vaxxers, and deaths are piling up. In the US, there are still deaths per day in the 1500 range after bottoming out in the 200 range in early summer 2021.

[pilowsky]

I just saw an R0 estimate for Omicron as 10, while Delta was 7 and the original strain was ~2.

 

While serious illness and death from Omicron appears to be less than Delta, the sheer numbers of people getting infected means that hospitals are being flooded with mostly unvaccinated anti-vaxxers, and deaths are piling up. In the US, there are still deaths per day in the 1500 range after bottoming out in the 200 range in early summer 2021.

 

I've read the same thing.

Even though disease severity is less the numbers are so vast that the tail of the severity distribution that requires hospitalisation is very large - especially if you have no vaccination.

 

 

I don't know why "crazy" is so popular in the world currently.

Historically it seems to happen when a large portion of the population is disaffected for some reason.

In Australia we would say they aren't getting "a fair suck of the sav." (I'll leave you to google that one).

That everyone gets a fair suck of the sav. in Australia - or at least feels that they are - is the main reason for the typically high compliance with government directives.

In spite of the very high level of anti-authoritarianism in Australia.

The Omicron variant of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) has become widespread across the world in a flashing manner. As of December 7, 2021, a total of 758 Omicron cases were confirmed in Denmark. Using the nucleotide sequences of the Delta and Omicron variants registered from Denmark in the GISAID database, we found that the effective (instantaneous) reproduction number of Omicron is 3.19 (95%CI 2.82-3.61) times greater than that of Delta under the same epidemiological conditions. https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/34967453/

 

 

I'm still waiting to see published data about disease severity in unvaccinated vs the various vaccination protocols. No doubt this will be available soon.

[thepossum]

As far as I can understand from WHO definitions endemicity means the end of pandemicity :)

 

Slightly confused - I didn't realise it was just a mathematical graph thing

 

But seemingly pandemonium still rules

 

EDIT Oops. To me horror I realise yet again I have been dragged into the Parade of Morons thread

[Winstonm]

 

California Deputy DA Who Fought Vaccine Mandate Dies Abruptly After Falling Ill With COVID at Age 46

 

 

A deputy district attorney and up-and-coming Republican political star in California’s Orange County has died abruptly after telling friends she contracted COVID-19.

 

Kelly Ernby, a presumed candidate for the state Assembly in 2022, was only 46 years old. According to the Los Angeles Times, she fell ill shortly after speaking out against vaccine mandates at a rally organized by Turning Point USA on Dec. 4.

 

 

 

 

It's beginning to look like the new Confederate States will need a bigger cemetery.