Parade of Morons

[Winstonm]

Along the same lines,this is one of the more troubling articles I have read recently:

 

 

Thousands of Los Angeles Police Department employees plan to seek exemptions to rules requiring city workers to get vaccinated against COVID-19, according to figures released Tuesday by city officials.

 

More than 2,600 LAPD employees have indicated that they plan to pursue religious exemptions, while more than 360 plan to seek medical ones.

 

That could amount to roughly a quarter of the LAPD’s workforce planning to seek an exemption, based on data in a memo sent by Wendy Macy, who heads the personnel department. Among city employees as a whole, fewer than 11% have indicated that they will seek an exemption.

 

 

 

 

Granted that a few of these could be legitimate. Still, to give the power of the state and a gun to minds stuck at age 15 is more than troubling - it's chilling.

[hrothgar]

Really? REALLY? BIG BROTHER is now in complete control? REALLY?

 

No, but not for the reasons that you think...

 

George Washington mandated smallpox vaccines for the continental army.

The army mandates vaccines to this day

US states have mandated vaccines for well over a hundred years.

 

The traditional libertarian position recognized that "Significant network effects justify substantial public health activities: maintaining the purity of water, assuring proper sewage disposal, controlling contagious diseases."

 

Big Brother has been in complete control on this one since at least the days of the Black Death

[kenberg]

As many have probably noticed, there is a lot of argument about booster shots.

For example at https://www.washingt...t-live-updates/ :

A planned booster shot campaign in the United States is dividing experts, as the Food and Drug Administration's vaccine advisory committee prepares to meet Friday for a nonbinding vote on whether the agency should approve a third dose of the vaccine developed by Pfizer and BioNTech.

 

The Biden administration has come out in strong support of giving booster shots to most Americans, and some states have begun preparing to distribute them as soon as next week. Immunocompromised people have been authorized to get booster shots since August — and many people with healthy immune systems have not waited for FDA approval to get theirs.

 

But the scientific community is split on this matter. Two senior outgoing FDA officials recently wrote a review with other scientists that was published in the Lancet medical journal, in which they argued that "current vaccine supplies could save more lives if used in previously unvaccinated populations than if used as boosters in vaccinated populations." The World Health Organization, for its part, has called for a moratorium on booster shots until the end of the year to ensure sufficient supply for poorer countries — a call that the White House has characterized as a "false choice."

 

 

 

A quick note on my experience. I got my Pfizer shots in January and February. I agreed to participate in some follow-up monitoring. I fill out a daily questionnaire (it's short) and every month they send me a kit where I prick myself and send back some blood spots. in return they send a brief summary of what the blood samples showed. Until this month, there have been two results. One showed that I had anti-bodies that could come from either having had the vaccine or having had covid, and a second result saying that it is highly likely that the first result was from the vaccine. This month the first result was equivocal "may be consistent with antibodies" and there was no second result, that being reasonable since there is not much to say about results that may be consistent with antibodies.

 

 

Ok, that's the result for one person so not proof of anything. But it seems like a reasonable guess that my protection is wearing off. I agreed to this post-vaccine monitoring simply because they asked me to, but I plan to mention the results when I call to see about a booster. I have been planning to wait until the 20th since I understand that to be the day the FDA is supposed to fully authorize it, but I am now thinking I will call today. The sooner the better.

 

And it seems to me that we, all of us, want to be doing boosters. What's wrong with a little magnetism between friends? (Ok, skip that last joking comment. I couldn't resist.)

 

[Winstonm]

As many have probably noticed, there is a lot of argument about booster shots.

For example at https://www.washingt...t-live-updates/ :

[/font][/color]

 

 

A quick note on my experience. I got my Pfizer shots in January and February. I agreed to participate in some follow-up monitoring. I fill out a daily questionnaire (it's short) and every month they send me a kit where I prick myself and send back some blood spots. in return they send a brief summary of what the blood samples showed. Until this month, there have been two results. One showed that I had anti-bodies that could come from either having had the vaccine or having had covid, and a second result saying that it is highly likely that the first result was from the vaccine. This month the first result was equivocal "may be consistent with antibodies" and there was no second result, that being reasonable since there is not much to say about results that may be consistent with antibodies.

 

 

Ok, that's the result for one person so not proof of anything. But it seems like a reasonable guess that my protection is wearing off. I agreed to this post-vaccine monitoring simply because they asked me to, but I plan to mention the results when I call to see about a booster. I have been planning to wait until the 20th since I understand that to be the day the FDA is supposed to fully authorize it, but I am now thinking I will call today. The sooner the better.

 

And it seems to me that we, all of us, want to be doing boosters. What's wrong with a little magnetism between friends? (Ok, skip that last joking comment. I couldn't resist.)

 

[/font]

I will try to be first in line for a booster as I don’t mind the government implanting a microchip in me - after all, I want them to know where to send my social security check as my communist party dues are late being paid.

[kenberg]

I will try to be first in line for a booster as I don't mind the government implanting a microchip in me - after all, I want them to know where to send my social security check as my communist party dues are late being paid.

 

My efforts so far to get the booster have run into another of my gripes. The hospital where I got my shots last Jan/Feb belongs, as they all do, to some system where you go through a patient portal, and after getting through this portal there is nothing much of any use there. I finally found a telephone number, I called and got, much to my pleasure, an actual person. I explained why I was calling, giving some details, after which she explained that she answers the phone and will give my name to a patient advocate who will call me. Uh-huh. Been there done (well, sorta and eventually done) that. My last patient portal experience was very trying. Abandon all hope, ye who try to enter here.

 

 

[Winstonm]

My efforts so far to get the booster have run into another of my gripes. The hospital where I got my shots last Jan/Feb belongs, as they all do, to some system where you go through a patient portal, and after getting through this portal there is nothing much of any use there. I finally found a telephone number, I called and got, much to my pleasure, an actual person. I explained why I was calling, giving some details, after which she explained that she answers the phone and will give my name to a patient advocate who will call me. Uh-huh. Been there done (well, sorta and eventually done) that. My last patient portal experience was very trying. Abandon all hope, ye who try to enter here.

 

 

I read something yesterday that I'm embarrassed to say is something I had not considered - that the U.S.A. already has healthcare rationing. It's called ability-to-pay rationing. As rationing of health services is one of the red herrings served cold to every attempt to improve U.S. healthcare to a single payer system, it is important to understand that rationing has always been part and parcel of our healthcare.

 

Covid is simply shining a huge spotlight on how bad our system remains.

[Chas_P]

My efforts so far to get the booster have run into another of my gripes.

I had absolutely no problem. I went to Publix. They asked, "Are you you immunocompromised?" I said, "Yes". They said, "Sign here." 30 minutes later and I was out of there............bulletproof.

[Chas_P]

Do you think it should be a personal choice to wear a seatbelt?

Well yes I do. The first car I owned was a 1954 Chevrolet 210 coupe. I had seatbelts installed (they weren't mandatory back in the olden times). But that was my choice; even at age 16 I had sense enough to know that seatbelts were a desirable feature. I didn't need "the government" to tell me that. There are road signs all over Georgia saying, "Click it, or ticket." I resent that. I never hit the road without my seatbelt fastened, but that's my personal choice. I don't need Big Brother telling me he's gonna fine me if I don't.

[Gilithin]

I had absolutely no problem. I went to Publix. They asked, "Are you you immunocompromised?" I said, "Yes". They said, "Sign here." 30 minutes later and I was out of there............bulletproof.

This sounds as honest as a statement from your idol #45. Congrats on being the biggest liar on BBF.

 

 

Well yes I do. The first car I owned was a 1954 Chevrolet 210 coupe. I had seatbelts installed (they weren't mandatory back in the olden times). But that was my choice; even at age 16 I had sense enough to know that seatbelts were a desirable feature. I didn't need "the government" to tell me that. There are road signs all over Georgia saying, "Click it, or ticket." I resent that. I never hit the road without my seatbelt fastened, but that's my personal choice. I don't need Big Brother telling me he's gonna fine me if I don't.

I am glad for you that you were lucky to be in a position both to get enough information to make an informed decision and also to be able to afford the modification. That is of course not true for everyone. So not having such a law would have the effect of killing a disproportionate number of poor Americans, particularly those from racial minorities. Perhaps therein lies the attraction for you?

 

Should I take your limited response as tacit approval of the other items on my list as well?

[Chas_P]

 

Should I take your limited response as tacit approval of the other items on my list as well?

Take it any way you like. Your list is totally insignificant to me.

[Cyberyeti]

Both my wife and I have had three doses. We aren't opposed to the vaccine. One question asked of us was "have you ever had myocarditis?" We could truthfully answer "no". But our younger son was born with viral myocarditis and therefore has refused the vaccine up to this point. Do you think he needs to "do what clearly has to be done"? I will grant that there's probably a very small percentage of the unvaccinated who have had myocarditis. But I don't know that. Nor do you. But, whatever the reason, I think we should all be allowed to do whatever we deem to be in our own best interest. You know... the old "my body, my choice" argument. And that's not intended as a condemnation of the pro-choice crowd. I agree with them. If a woman wants to abort her baby, that's her business. The government has no right to interfere. If my son doesn't want the Covid-19 vaccine, that's his business. The government has no right to interfere. Just my opinion.

 

Your son has every right to refuse it with his medical history, and should not be penalised for doing so.

 

I wrestled with whether I should get the vaccine (I have post viral ME and my immune system processes viruses in a very odd way about 1/3 of the time which would have been a disaster with a Covid infection or vaccine), tried to get the science and got the answer "nobody knows". I eventually decided to get it which worked fine.

 

The point about vaccines which make them different to seatbelts is that while both protect you, the vaccine helps protect society in general (yes a seatbelt in the rear of a car may protect the person in front, but an unvaccinated person who works in the wrong setting could infect a lot of people). Other people getting vaccinated protects your son, and that is why a state mandate is reasonable.

[johnu]

Florida GOP Bookkeeper Who Railed Against ‘Faucism’ Dies Of COVID-19

 

A Florida Republican who ranted against coronavirus safety mandates on social media died “suddenly” of COVID-19 before he could teach anyone else how to manage his local party chapter’s accounting software ― leaving his former colleagues scrambling.

For more than a year, the Hillsborough GOP relied on software developed by Gregg Prentice, 61, who ran its “election integrity” committee, according its website.

 

“Gregg’s software converted data from our Quickbooks software to supply the information needed by the FEC,” read the filing.

“End Faucism,” read one of Prentice’s posts, attacking the nation’s leading expert on infectious disease, Dr. Anthony Fauci, who has become a right-wing boogeyman during the pandemic.

 

Another post said: “We need more socialist distancing than we do social distancing.”

It is unconfirmed that a Hillsborough QOP spokesman said "Covid doesn't kill people, Quickbooks kills people.

[barmar]

Well yes I do. The first car I owned was a 1954 Chevrolet 210 coupe. I had seatbelts installed (they weren't mandatory back in the olden times). But that was my choice; even at age 16 I had sense enough to know that seatbelts were a desirable feature. I didn't need "the government" to tell me that. There are road signs all over Georgia saying, "Click it, or ticket." I resent that. I never hit the road without my seatbelt fastened, but that's my personal choice. I don't need Big Brother telling me he's gonna fine me if I don't.

The libertarian philosophy is that you can do as you please as long as it doesn't impact other people.

 

But in our highly connected society, it's very hard not to impact others. If there are lots of people not wearing seatbelts, it increases everyone's medical costs, because it's not feasible to make your insurance premiums dependent on whether you wear a seatbelt (we'd need continuous monitoring -- another Big Brother intrusion).

 

And if you don't get a COVID-19 vaccination, you're not just endangering yourself. If you get COVID, you can infect others (even some who were vaccinated).

 

Maybe we should bring back leper colonies, but this time for COVID anti-vaxxers.

[Chas_P]

The libertarian philosophy is that you can do as you please as long as it doesn't impact other people.

 

But in our highly connected society, it's very hard not to impact others. If there are lots of people not wearing seatbelts, it increases everyone's medical costs, because it's not feasible to make your insurance premiums dependent on whether you wear a seatbelt (we'd need continuous monitoring -- another Big Brother intrusion).

Well if I ever decide to drive to Massachusetts you will be fully protected. I'll have my seatbelt fastened (just as I have for the last 67 years). ;)

[kenberg]

The libertarian philosophy is that you can do as you please as long as it doesn't impact other people.

 

But in our highly connected society, it's very hard not to impact others. If there are lots of people not wearing seatbelts, it increases everyone's medical costs, because it's not feasible to make your insurance premiums dependent on whether you wear a seatbelt (we'd need continuous monitoring -- another Big Brother intrusion).

 

And if you don't get a COVID-19 vaccination, you're not just endangering yourself. If you get COVID, you can infect others (even some who were vaccinated).

 

Maybe we should bring back leper colonies, but this time for COVID anti-vaxxers.

 

The problem I have with the libertarian philosophy is that it is theoretical.

I have little interest in telling others what to do and I don't like others telling me what to do, this requires no theory. And it allows for exceptions. Vaccines are an obvious exception. Seatbelts are a reasonable exception. We regulate a lot of things about driving and adding in a seatbelt requirement is ok by me. In this hyper technology age we could probably solve the insurance problem. My car knows whether I have it on, my phone knows where I am and probably what I am doing, we could solve the insurance problem but why bother, just tell people to wear seat belts. It won't hurt them.

 

It brings to mind Groundhog Day with Bill Murray contesting the law against driving a car on railroad tracks. "That's one I agree with", his passenger says.

 

Once we accept the obvious, that people vary greatly in their needs, desires, and values, then it seems clear we should go easy on telling people what to do. Libertarian philosophy makes a complication out of this simple approach.

[Winstonm]

The problem I have with the libertarian philosophy is that it is theoretical juvenile.

I have little interest in telling others what to do and I don't like others telling me what to do, this requires no theory. And it allows for exceptions. Vaccines are an obvious exception. Seatbelts are a reasonable exception. We regulate a lot of things about driving and adding in a seatbelt requirement is ok by me. In this hyper technology age we could probably solve the insurance problem. My car knows whether I have it on, my phone knows where I am and probably what I am doing, we could solve the insurance problem but why bother, just tell people to wear seat belts. It won't hurt them.

 

It brings to mind Groundhog Day with Bill Murray contesting the law against driving a car on railroad tracks. "That's one I agree with", his passenger says.

 

Once we accept the obvious, that people vary greatly in their needs, desires, and values, then it seems clear we should go easy on telling people what to do. Libertarian philosophy makes a complication out of this simple approach.

 

FYP

[pilowsky]

An infected essential worker in Australia has caused another area-wide lockdown.

The essential work was to assist in the production of "I'm a celebrity get me out of here"

 

She's been fined.

 

[barmar]

The problem I have with the libertarian philosophy is that it is theoretical.

I have little interest in telling others what to do and I don't like others telling me what to do, this requires no theory. And it allows for exceptions. Vaccines are an obvious exception. Seatbelts are a reasonable exception. We regulate a lot of things about driving and adding in a seatbelt requirement is ok by me. In this hyper technology age we could probably solve the insurance problem. My car knows whether I have it on, my phone knows where I am and probably what I am doing, we could solve the insurance problem but why bother, just tell people to wear seat belts. It won't hurt them.

 

It brings to mind Groundhog Day with Bill Murray contesting the law against driving a car on railroad tracks. "That's one I agree with", his passenger says.

 

Once we accept the obvious, that people vary greatly in their needs, desires, and values, then it seems clear we should go easy on telling people what to do. Libertarian philosophy makes a complication out of this simple approach.

This month's Scientific American has a letter to the editors from someone explaining the Republican stance about mask mandates (it was in response to an article titled "Do Republicans Mistrust Science?".

 

He said that they don't object to them because they're unreasonable scientifically, they just object to the government intrusion on individual liberties. He thinks that the government should present the information openly, and then trust people to do the right thing based on it. "Trust is a two-way street" -- if the government won't trust the people to do the right thing with the science, the people shouldn't trust the government to make rules based on it.

 

Unfortunately, when all of this becomes highly politicized, and social media amplifies partisan mis- and dis-information, that attutude is hard to jusetify, in my opinion. No matter what the government says, opponents will view it as a conspiracy theory.

[Winstonm]

 

He said that they don't object to them because they're unreasonable scientifically, they just object to the government intrusion on individual liberties. He thinks that the government should present the information openly, and then trust people to do the right thing based on it. "Trust is a two-way street" -- if the government won't trust the people to do the right thing with the science, the people shouldn't trust the government to make rules based on it.

 

 

This sounds exactly like a 16-year-old arguing with his dad about why he should be able to stay out until 2 a.m.

[mycroft]

Wow. Trusting the masses to do the right thing. I mean, each individual, not "the masses" as a whole.

 

He's either straight up BSing, or he don't understand people. I know which way I'm betting (do I hear "¿porque no los dos?")

 

I can think of a famous quote attributed to President Lincoln and another attributed to P. T. Barnum, and just the fact that I don't have to state them because everybody else knows them too should be sufficient riposte to this idea.

[kenberg]

This month's Scientific American has a letter to the editors from someone explaining the Republican stance about mask mandates (it was in response to an article titled "Do Republicans Mistrust Science?".

 

He said that they don't object to them because they're unreasonable scientifically, they just object to the government intrusion on individual liberties. He thinks that the government should present the information openly, and then trust people to do the right thing based on it. "Trust is a two-way street" -- if the government won't trust the people to do the right thing with the science, the people shouldn't trust the government to make rules based on it.

 

Unfortunately, when all of this becomes highly politicized, and social media amplifies partisan mis- and dis-information, that attitude is hard to justify, in my opinion. No matter what the government says, opponents will view it as a conspiracy theory.

 

I think the right response to this is:

 

Yes. You are right. We are interfering with individual liberties. We do not do this lightly. We do it because it is necessary.

 

I think the analogy with seatbelts is wrong. I once had a motorcycle, I was racing around a track with a friend, I took a spill, and it was after that I decided to get a helmet. Yes, i should wear a helmet and, while we are at it, I should not have been racing around that track. There are quite a few other stupid things I did when I was young, and some when I was not so young. vaccines and masks are different. Covid is killing many, it is seriously disrupting economies, it has mutated to delta and might well mutate again, we are in a life and death struggle and for that reason, we put aside any civil liberty to be a moron. Other issues are sometimes a balancing act. How much stupidity do we want to allow, and who decides? With covid, we must act. End of argument.

[sharon j]

I was thinking about the seatbelt analogy. If I understand it, some think seatbelts should not be a law and be voluntary. In most states in the US, 16 year old children are driving. Should we really expect 16 year old children and perhaps their passengers, who are most likely children too, be expected to make good and safe choices regarding seatbelts? I think the seatbelt laws helps save the lives of those individuals unlikely to make good choices.

[kenberg]

I was thinking about the seatbelt analogy. If I understand it, some think seatbelts should not be a law and be voluntary. In most states in the US, 16 year old children are driving. Should we really expect 16 year old children and perhaps their passengers, who are most likely children too, be expected to make good and safe choices regarding seatbelts? I think the seatbelt laws helps save the lives of those individuals unlikely to make good choices.

 

I am fine with laws that require seatbelts, and I am fine with requiring seatbelt use for those who are fully adult And, incidentally, I bought my first car at age 15, I earned the money to pay for it, I did not consider myself a child. Not an adult, but not a child either. The law at teh time kept me from getting most construction jobs, the argument was that that law was to protect me, I had no wish for that protection. I was making decisions about my future, my choice. Not yet an adult, definitely not a child.

 

But I see all of these things, seatbelt laws for young drivers, seatbelt laws for fully adult drivers, laws that were said to protect me from my own decisions, as fundamentally different from the situation with covid. As I say, I am ok with seatbelt laws. If it were put to a vote I would vote for seatbelt laws. I would not think that the country had totally lost its mind if the majority voted against it. I would be surprised, and I would think it a mistake, but not crazy.

 

Covid is different. It has to be beaten back, beating it back requires a set of actions, the consequences to all of us of not beating it back are severe, so I favor imposing rules regarding vaccines and masks that I might not favor if the stakes were not so high.

[mycroft]

it's not the seatbelt/helmet analogy, it's the drunk driver analogy.

 

Seatbelts stop people from killing themselves. Alcohol limits stop drunk drivers from killing other people. It *also* helps stop people from killing themselves, but that's not necessarily sufficient to "restrict liberties".

 

Now, in non-US countries, seatbelts reduce health care costs - which are paid for by socialised medicine. So in fact it does affect "everybody". But that's a more minor argument.

[pilowsky]

The real difference is in the health care system.

Normal first world countries happily put up with seatbelt and helmet laws because we community rate stupidity.

We don't want to pay for your right to have a head injury when you come off your motorbike - whatever your age.

We also have bicycle helmet laws - although unfortunately, they are still free to wear lycra.