Here's a nice hand (bid it MY way)

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&w=sa54htdakqj96ckq8&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=p1cp1dp1hp2d(xzy%20gf)p3cp?]133|200[/hv]

 

MPs

 

You're playing xyz, 2♦ was artificial and game forcing.

What's your plan now?

[nullve]

Do you play Walsh?

 

If you don't, then 1♥ could be on a balanced hand so 3♣ is just the standard (but very space-consuming) way to show 5+ clubs.

 

If you do, then 1♥ already promises an unbalanced so 3♣ must show 6+ clubs.

[mw64ahw]

I'm feeling impatient today so

4NT asking for Aces

6NT with 1 shown, 7NT with 2

[smerriman]

If you do, then 1♥ already promises an unbalanced so 3♣ must show 6+ clubs.

What do you bid with 3145 and no spade stopper - 2♠? I guess that's an option, though I would have interpreted 3♣ as more of a default rebid with nothing further to show.

 

As for the OP, I would have bid 3♦, not 2♦; one of the benefits of having 2♣ cover all of the invites is that your jump bids can be slammish. 3♦ now is not as meaningful, so I'm probably just going to blast 4NT as well (or whatever your keycard bid is).

[jillybean]

No Walsh

 

If you had rebid 3♦ partner will cooperate with a ♥ cue.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm feeling impatient today so

4NT asking for Aces

6NT with 1 shown, 7NT with 2

 

This deserves Jxx, AKQJ, x, J10xxx 6m prob makes but 6N is doomed on a spade lead

[LBengtsson]

4♦ next. that (to me lol!) is logic. says I like your ♣ suit and I have solid ♦ suit myself. I want a NT trump contract played from partners side of the table at Matchpoint if his ♥ suit is king high and not solid. am i wrong here with 4♦??? or could it be taken as Kickback here??? I would like to know myself.

[mw64ahw]

4♦ next. that (to me lol!) is logic. says I like your ♣ suit and I have solid ♦ suit myself. I want a NT trump contract played from partners side of the table at Matchpoint if his ♥ suit is king high and not solid. am i wrong here with 4♦??? or could it be taken as Kickback here??? I would like to know myself.

Agree with this - I really need opener to play NT if K high ♥

 

 

 

[mw64ahw]

This deserves Jxx, AKQJ, x, J10xxx 6m prob makes but 6N is doomed on a spade lead

That would be my bad luck and teach me for being impatient, but I'm perhaps swayed by jillybean's previous interesting slams

[jillybean]

4♦ next. that (to me lol!) is logic. says I like your ♣ suit and I have solid ♦ suit myself. I want a NT trump contract played from partners side of the table at Matchpoint if his ♥ suit is king high and not solid. am i wrong here with 4♦??? or could it be taken as Kickback here??? I would like to know myself.

4♦ is kickback for me, but without that, how does 4♦ say you like my Clubs?

[DavidKok]

We are already in a game force. Jumps should be very narrowly defined. I feel like a broken record, but jumping on slam auctions is almost never the best course of action. I hate 4NT, and don't love 4♦ (we are too strong). Why not 3♦ followed by 4♣? 7m and 7NT are not out of the picture but are far from guaranteed on just the present auction.

 

I have been playing a different style for so long that I'm not sure what partner promises on the auction. Is 2=4=3=4 with weak spades still an option (and since you play weak NT, this promises 15+) or would partner have given preference to 3♦? Would 2♠ over 2♦ have been artificial (fourth suit) or a picture bid? Would 2♥ promise a 5-6 hand, or can it be a punt? If partner has, say, 1=4=3=5, obviously their diamonds are weak so I presume showing clubs takes priority over supporting diamonds?

 

@jillybean 3♦ would already be natural, so 4♦ promises support. If the suit would not have been bid earlier it would be a splinter, but since it has it shows strength instead.

[nullve]

What do you bid with 3145 and no spade stopper - 2♠? I guess that's an option, though I would have interpreted 3♣ as more of a default rebid with nothing further to show.

3415 and no spade stopper, you mean? (Opener has already shown 4 hearts.)

 

A situation like this (it might have been the exact same sequence 1♣-1♦(Walsh); 1♥-2♦(XYZ)) with Opener having 3415 with no stopper in the 4th suit, spades) actually came up about a year ago, and my very good partner chose to bid 2N. After the board he asked me if I thought he should have bid 3♣ since he lacked a stopper and I told him I agreed with 2N.

 

So I realise that

3♣ must show 6+ clubs.

was a bit optimistic.

[pescetom]

4◇ would be Kickback for us: that's why I will bid 4♧ instead (forcing and invites control-bids that should clarify whether we can play 6N rather than 6♧).

[Winstonm]

It might be a good idea to let partner in on the secret of what suit will be trumps: 4C

[Gilithin]

4◇ would be Kickback for us: that's why I will bid 4♧ instead (forcing and invites control-bids that should clarify whether we can play 6N rather than 6♧).

It might be a good idea to let partner in on the secret of what suit will be trumps: 4C

If we bid 4♣ partner is guaranteed to continue 4♥. Have we actually advanced any further? Presumably you want to bid 4♠ next. Let's say partner then bids 5♣ (or perhaps 4NT if that is Last Train) - what now, are you happy? Which hands do you see getting right with this approach that we are going to fail on with a simple 4♦?

[Cyberyeti]

Why didn't I start 1♣-2♦ ? The hand is likely to be a whole lot simpler if I do.

[DavidKok]

Why didn't I start 1♣-2♦ ? The hand is likely to be a whole lot simpler if I do.

That depends entirely on the local customs and decade you were born.

[jillybean]

Why didn't I start 1♣-2♦ ? The hand is likely to be a whole lot simpler if I do.

 

Check the title of the thread again. 1♣ 2♦ would be a limit raise in clubs here.

 

David, I too try to avoid jumps once we are in a GF auction, unless I need exclusion :D

[Winstonm]

If we bid 4♣ partner is guaranteed to continue 4♥. Have we actually advanced any further? Presumably you want to bid 4♠ next. Let's say partner then bids 5♣ (or perhaps 4NT if that is Last Train) - what now, are you happy? Which hands do you see getting right with this approach that we are going to fail on with a simple 4♦?

 

I don’t care for an over-reliance on keycard bids which by their nature are unilateral - I need to find specific cards in spades and hearts and that requires input from my partner.

 

If partner holds QJx. Kxxx, void, AJxxxx , I would expect 5C and not 4H.

[Cyberyeti]

Check the title of the thread again. 1♣ 2♦ would be a limit raise in clubs here.

 

David, I too try to avoid jumps once we are in a GF auction, unless I need exclusion :D

 

I was simply asking a question, there is a price to be paid for all these methods, I was just checking what it meant (and whether for some reason you'd decided not to use a SJS).

[jillybean]

Winstonm's way

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sa54htdakqj96ckq8&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=p1cp1dp1hp2d(xzy%20gf)p3cp4cp4hp?]133|200[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

Winstonm's way

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sa54htdakqj96ckq8&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=p1cp1dp1hp2d(xzy%20gf)p3cp4cp4hp?]133|200[/hv]

 

If I bid 4♠ what would 4N from partner mean ? and what would 4N mean from me ?

[Winstonm]

Winstonm's way

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sa54htdakqj96ckq8&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=p1cp1dp1hp2d(xzy%20gf)p3cp4cp4hp?]133|200[/hv]

 

At this point I am committing us to slam as partner has agreed he likes his hand for slam. My bid at this point is a simple 4S as later on I want to emphasize that spade honors are a premium. If partner has nothing left to say, I would expect 5C over 4S, at which point I would continue with 5D (and this is one reason I set the suit with 4C - there can be no confusion that this is an attempt to play 5D). 5D commits us to 6C yet partner needs to ask himself why didn't I just bid 6. The obvious reason is looking for a grand. Partner will now cooperate and bid 5H with concentrated hearts, 5S with concentrated spades, or 6C with neither.

 

I'm not castigating those who use keycard or other such bids - it's just that I learned the game and was playing at a fairly high level well before the popularity of keycard and so learned cue bidding. If you get the same results another way, that is fine with me.

 

PS: To answer Cyberyeti's question, 4N is a partnership agreement: it can be keycard or, what I prefer, more of a last train type bid, showing extras, or something else entirely.

 

(At one time in one partnership I actually played Culbertson 4N/5N convention where in this sequence 4N would show 2 aces and a king of a previously bid suit, and if followed by 5N would show 3 aces. It was actually quite playable. )

[Cyberyeti]

 

PS: To answer Cyberyeti's question, 4N is a partnership agreement: it can be keycard or, what I prefer, more of a last train type bid, showing extras, or something else entirely.

 

 

The point of the question was to OP, because if you're not sure what 4N is over 4♠ then don't bid 4♠, and if you're not 100% sure how partner would read 4N, don't do that either :)

 

For us 4N over 4♠ would be a spade cue (we use NT to sub for the most expensive cue)

[LBengtsson]

At this point I am committing us to slam as partner has agreed he likes his hand for slam. My bid at this point is a simple 4S as later on I want to emphasize that spade honors are a premium. If partner has nothing left to say, I would expect 5C over 4S, at which point I would continue with 5D (and this is one reason I set the suit with 4C - there can be no confusion that this is an attempt to play 5D). 5D commits us to 6C yet partner needs to ask himself why didn't I just bid 6. The obvious reason is looking for a grand. Partner will now cooperate and bid 5H with concentrated hearts, 5S with concentrated spades, or 6C with neither.

 

I like your thinking here, Winstonm, however there may be 13 tricks available without partner having any extra value in ♥/♠. 1♠1♥6♦5♣ is c. 70% if partner has stiff ♦ and ♥A and ♣A