And another 3136

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&n=sk84h8dk92cakqj92&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1dp2cp2dp?]133|200[/hv]

 

2/1 , 2♣ gf with clubs.

[Cyberyeti]

This is a tricky hand, partner could have anything from Ax, xxx, AQxxxx, xx where slam is cold to QJx(x), KQJ(x), QJxxx, x(x) where 5m doesn't make.

 

I'd probably start with 3♦ or 3♥ (we don't tend to limit our splinters) in your auction. Not sure whether I'd have started with a SJS 3♣ if I played more standard SJSs than I do.

[mw64ahw]

Looking at ending in 6♦/6NT I'd go straight to 4♥ (2 keycards) given all suit controls are present.

[Cyberyeti]

Looking at ending in 6♦/6NT I'd go straight to 4♥ (2 keycards) given all suit controls are present.

 

You're not very well placed to know which of 6♦/6N you want to be in yet, can you distinguish between QJxx, Axx, AQxxx, x where 6N won't make on a heart lead but 6♦ is cold if they break (and 6♣ is even better) and other hands where 6N is cold, also you don't know whether it's your ♠Kxx or partner's hypothetical ♥AQx or Kxx that needs protecting.

[DavidKok]

I think this hand should show instead of ask, and then trust partner to make the call. 3♥ splinter would be near-perfect, although partner will likely expect 3=1=4=5 instead of 3=1=3=6, and we are over strength. 3♦ is a suitable alternative, but I think the splinter is more descriptive. Partner's 2♦ shows an unbalanced hand, so they likely have club shortage. Getting partner to properly evaluate their major suit values (in particular, ♥Axx is beautiful for slam, ♥KQTx is garbage) has to be most important.

 

As an aside, in my weak (12-14) NT partnership we only rebid 2♦ with 6(+) here, and will rebid a 4-card major even without extras. This gives some flexibility in exploring 3NT/5m, because three suits will have been bid naturally already. So far we haven't had any disasters. Depending on the South hand this might be very helpful.

[mw64ahw]

You're not very well placed to know which of 6♦/6N you want to be in yet, can you distinguish between QJxx, Axx, AQxxx, x where 6N won't make on a heart lead but 6♦ is cold and other hands where 6N is cold, also you don't know whether it's your ♠Kxx or partner's hypothetical ♥AQx or Kxx that needs protecting.

You're correct-I'm expecting to be in 6♦, but if partner can bid beyond 5♥ immediately then I look to convert to 6NT

[Winstonm]

If you have to rebid a 4-card diamond suit, change your methods. For the rest of us, there is a known fit and high hopes for slam.

 

There are two considerations: from which side to play it and who knows about the slam potential?

 

It is difficult to get partner on board with minimum values and to understand there are 6 club tricks available . I am going to start with 3D as supporting a minor suit should by itself hint at slam aspirations. I don’t like splinter because partner will not understand that xx, AQJ, AQxxxx, xx is golden for 6 clubs.

 

I also think there is a good argument for bidding 3C and then supporting diamonds .

 

Either way it is important to uncover what type hand partner holds. Qx, AQJ, QJxxxx, xx is consistent with the bidding.

[LBengtsson]

I also think there is a good argument for bidding 3C and then supporting diamonds .

 

agree. supporting ♦ could lead to a 6♦ contract when 6NT from your side would be preferable. the ♦ support can wait. it is important to find out if partner has a 6 card ♦ suit or a 4 card major here. you should be in charge of the auction after partners 2♦. I think the worst can happen is that you arrive in 5♦ when 3NT makes with overtricks if playing match points.

[Cyberyeti]

agree. supporting ♦ could lead to a 6♦ contract when 6NT from your side would be preferable. the ♦ support can wait. it is important to find out if partner has a 6 card ♦ suit or a 4 card major here. you should be in charge of the auction after partners 2♦. I think the worst can happen is that you arrive in 5♦ when 3NT makes with overtricks if playing match points.

 

Agreeing diamonds may allow you to find ♦Q when it's more difficult if you don't.

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&n=sk84h8dk92cakqj92&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1dp2cp2dp3dp3hp?]133|200[/hv]

 

If you raise ♦, (my choice) partner makes a cooperative 3♥ bid, values, could be 4 hearts, 5+ diamonds.

 

It is difficult to get partner on board with minimum values and to understand there are 6 club tricks available.

Right! Here I am with SIX tricks in my hand, a King in partners suit, shortness and the ♠K which could come in handy too. I'm going to be the one driving this auction.

[Winstonm]

[hv=pc=n&n=sk84h8dk92cakqj92&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1dp2cp2dp3dp3hp?]133|200[/hv]

 

If you raise ♦, (my choice) partner makes a cooperative 3♥ bid, values, could be 4 hearts, 5+ diamonds.

 

At this point I will not allow the hand to be played in less than 4NT so I bid 3S. If partner follows with 3N I will continue with 4C. If this spurs a heart cue bid I would then use whatever keycard convention is available.

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand and auction,

[hv=pc=n&s=s72haqj9daqj83c74&w=sqt963ht7652d7c63&n=sk84h8dk92cakqj92&e=saj5hk43dt654ct85&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1dp2cp2dp3cp3hp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Half the field got caught in 3nt while others played in ♦s.

[Winstonm]

Here's the full hand and auction,

[hv=pc=n&s=s72haqj9daqj83c74&w=sqt963ht7652d7c63&n=sk84h8dk92cakqj92&e=saj5hk43dt654ct85&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1dp2cp2dp3cp3hp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Half the field got caught in 3nt while others played in ♦s.

Note that the worthless doubletons scream that for slam purposes partner should declare.

[jillybean]

Note that the worthless doubletons scream that for slam purposes partner should declare.

Yes, protecting the ♠K

[Gilithin]

If you have to rebid a 4-card diamond suit, change your methods. For the rest of us, there is a known fit and high hopes for slam.

What is your preferred rebid scheme with 4441 hands of various strengths?

[Cyberyeti]

What is your preferred rebid scheme with 4441 hands of various strengths?

 

The problem in many systems is with a 4441 in your 1N opening range as a 2N rebid shows a different strength, I see no alternative to 1♦-2♣-2♦ with a 13 count playing weak NT without 2/1 GF unless you're prepared to open 1♥ and admit to a 5th heart you don't have by rebidding 2♦.

 

I'm not sure exactly what the 2N rebid shows in 2/1 and whether you can disentangle the range if it matches what you open 1N on.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=s72haqj9daqj83c74&w=sqt963ht7652d7c63&n=sk84h8dk92cakqj92&e=saj5hk43dt654ct85&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1dp2cp2dp3cp3hp3nppp]399|300|

JillyBean 'Here's the full hand and auction,

Half the field got caught in 3nt while others played in ♦s.

++++++++++++++++++

As the cards lie, 3N works better than 6♦; but luckier views (as suggested by other commentators) get you to the excellent 6♣ or 6N. [/hv]

 

 

 

[Cyberyeti]

3N is VERY pusillanimous, if you have a quantitative 4N, bid it (with our arragements it would continue 5N-6♣/N. If not, 3♠-4♦ now you know you have to declare to protect your K♠, what I would do is dependent on my arrangements now (what my KC bid is).

[DavidKok]

What is your preferred rebid scheme with 4441 hands of various strengths?

If you're playing a weak NT I prefer 1♦-2♣; 2♥ with a weak 4=4=4=1, but as I said the best I can claim is that we haven't had any accidents yet. We are likely headed to 3NT, and this way I keep the bidding low, don't promise far too many diamonds (partner will expect a 5th most of the time but what can you do) and, most importantly, I don't suggest more club support than I actually have in case partner wants to try 6♣. We also get easy third round rebids - 2NT/3♠/3NT depending on the hand and partner's bid.

[Winstonm]

What is your preferred rebid scheme with 4441 hands of various strengths?

Justin Lall convinced me that it is ok to rebid nt with a singleton. The only opening scheme I ever used was the 2D opening in Sontag/Weichsel version of Precision.

 

I personally think it a mistake to create alterations to your basic bidding structure to handle low frequency hands. This fits with my thinking that 2/1 is built for game/slam bidding so you accept that part score bidding will not be as accurate . 1nt forcing is integral to 2/1 so to change it to semi-forcing alters the entire structure of other bids. I think this is a mistake . If you want to be able to bid non-forcing 1nt, don’t play 2/1.

[pescetom]

This fits with my thinking that 2/1 is built for game/slam bidding so you accept that part score bidding will not be as accurate . 1nt forcing is integral to 2/1 so to change it to semi-forcing alters the entire structure of other bids. I think this is a mistake . If you want to be able to bid non-forcing 1nt, don’t play 2/1.

 

It's a legitimate viewpoint, but I think it has become a minority one. Even the conservative Bridge World Standard now says that a one-notrump response is semiforcing (in it's system where 2/1 is game forcing).

[DavidKok]

I play 2/1 with nonforcing 6-10(11) NT and 'multiplex 2♣'. I think it's very reasonable, and not much better or worse than semiforcing 1NT. I know a number of experienced players have been looking into using 2♣ in 2/1 as entirely artificial (compared to the current 'clubs or balanced or a strong hand with a fit'), possibly even initiating a relay sequence, so from that point of view overloading 2♣ is not that crazy.

[Winstonm]

I play 2/1 with nonforcing 6-10(11) NT and 'multiplex 2♣'. I think it's very reasonable, and not much better or worse than semiforcing 1NT. I know a number of experienced players have been looking into using 2♣ in 2/1 as entirely artificial (compared to the current 'clubs or balanced or a strong hand with a fit'), possibly even initiating a relay sequence, so from that point of view overloading 2♣ is not that crazy.

 

You can overload 2C or overload 1N - there are only so many spaces available for bids and too many hands to fit them all. Something's gotta give.

[jillybean]

 

As the cards lie, 3N works better than 6♦; but luckier views (as suggested by other commentators) get you to the excellent 6♣ or 6N. [/hv]

 

One pair bid 6♦, the others were in 3 or 5 ♦, 3nt. No one found the club or NT slam.

[mikeh]

Justin Lall convinced me that it is ok to rebid nt with a singleton. The only opening scheme I ever used was the 2D opening in Sontag/Weichsel version of Precision.

 

I personally think it a mistake to create alterations to your basic bidding structure to handle low frequency hands. This fits with my thinking that 2/1 is built for game/slam bidding so you accept that part score bidding will not be as accurate . 1nt forcing is integral to 2/1 so to change it to semi-forcing alters the entire structure of other bids. I think this is a mistake . If you want to be able to bid non-forcing 1nt, don’t play 2/1.

I may be wrong, but as I recall the rebid notrump with a stiff debate was after 1x 1y, where he advocated rebidding 1N if in range…say 1354 1D 1S 1N.

 

I like the style but neither of my two serious partnerships partners will play it.

 

I don’t think he was discussing a 2N rebid. The considerations are markedly different. After 1N, the auction may be over, plus we have very narrowly defined our strength, if not our shape. After a 2/1 game force response, we’re not worried about part scores: we’re about strain, right-siding (far more important in game or slam than in partials), and game/slam.

 

As for how we’d bid it, I think it very close between 1D 2C 2D and 1D 2C 2H

 

The combined honours in my long suits, each headed by the ace, persuade me that this is just enough to bid a descriptive 2H. I’m influenced by the fact that we open virtually all 11 counts, so this is easily a king value more than a minimum. Swap a red Jack for a small spade, so we have Jx AQxx AQJxx xx, and I think we’re just on the other side of the decision…but it’s very close either way.

 

Now I think responder needs to grab notrump…not necessarily committing to notrump but protecting the spade King. Slam is definitely in the offing, and the advantage of 2/1 is that 2N is forcing….and (importantly) will allow opener to pattern out….imagine seeing a 3C rebid over 2N. Or 3D for that matter, showing a 6-4 red hand, over which we have an easy keycard.

 

As it happens, opener raises 2N to 3N.

 

Now responder has problems. His hand is far stronger than a good 16 count. I think 4D for now.

 

Then 4H by opener. We don’t have kickback available anymore….one good metarule is that anyone who offered to play in 3N cannot ever ask for keycards.I think you’ll find it difficult to construct hands/auctions where that rule lets you down.

 

So I think that in real life, north is going to have to guess….he can’t find out how good opener’s diamonds are. Opener might have, say, Qxx AKQx Axxxx x and bid the same way, although arguably opener should not cue on this auction, below game,with poor diamonds, given the context.

 

On a lucky day I’d jump to 6N over 4H. On an unlucky day, I bid 4N

 

 

 

If opener rebid 2D, which I happily play as ‘could be 4’, responder bids 3D anyway. He’s not looking for a diamond contract…he’s looking for 6N, with diamonds as a fallback.

 

This fetches 3H, and now I can jump to 4N, quantitative, or cue 3S…which I would NOT do.

 

3S is either no spade stopper (xx Kx Kxxx AKJxx?) or the spade ace, hoping opener can bid 3Nwith Qx, Qxx etc or intending to pull 3N, thus revealing 3S as a cuebid.

 

If I jumped to 4N…..I think that opener, who hasn’t shown anything by way of extras, is on the cusp of 6N or pass.

 

 

Obviously, since I’ve seen both hands, I’d always get to 6N by north🤪

 

Oh, btw, playing 1N as semi-forcing is perfectly ok in a 2/1 context. Opener only passes with minimum 5332 hands and even if responder intended a 3 card limit raise, 1N will usually be fine….and indeed will quite often yield a plus when 3M was failing. In addition, some pairs lump the 3 card limit raise into 2C….I don’t much like this since it requires some artificiality to work things out, but some very good players use it.