pclayton Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 White / White, IMP pairs with a very good pard: xxATxxxxxxAKx You open 1♥ and pard bids 2♣. You rebid 2♥ and pard raises to 3♥. 2♣ is 100% GF2♥ doesn't promise 63♥ is vague and only denies the ability to splinter or make a picture jump. Your agreements are 'Frivolous 3N' (where 3N denies slam interest) and a cue shows slam interest. What is your call? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 3NT for me. I don't believe my hand constitutes a slam try, but I'll be very happy to cooperate with any that partner wants to make (over 4♦ I'll bid blackwood). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reisig Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 4♣ - my hand is not bad (AK in pard's suit and 6th ♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Are we playing 1st/2nd round controls? If so I like 4♣ as it denies first or second round control in spades and we know that if partner cuebids 4♦ then at least we don't have 2 quick losers in spades. Partner can then decide whether to sign off or to continue cue-bidding. If we are playing only 1st round controls, then I bid 3NT (which will deny 1st round spade control) as I will have a harder time judging whether to move over 4♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 I will bid 4C (showing slam interest) I like my prime values (ACE and KING), and I love my club fitting honors (AK in partners suit), my hand, while not all that good, is still darn good for this auction. I would prefer to be playing serious 3NT where I would make the same identical 4♣ bid.. lol.. denying slam interest but showing fitting clubs... :-) Now, about that 2♥ bid.. come on, 2♣ is game force, and all your values are in clubs.. we both know you should have raised clubs last time EVEN IF 2♥ doesn't promise six. The auction would be much easier on us if it was... 1H-2C3C-3H3N Now we have shown our hand properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 I don't see immediate slam interestin in this 7 loser hand with poor trumps. So I'll bid 3NT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 3N. Yes I upgrade the AKx of clubs for sure, but upgrading it by about 4 points? That's just too much for me. This had a happy ending though, except for me...err eddie... :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 4cWe have limited our hand with 2h and p knows we have some 11-13 6 card nothing hand often so..........1) advantage of p thinking we never have anything2) we have failed to cuebid spades3) Over 4h we can cuebid 5d if we have something,,,,over 4d we can bid 4H.4) With basic 14 hcp hand p could have just bid 4h...so 3H shows extra something. P has to have at least: AXX=KQ=KXX=QXXXX at worst and expect more than this for 3H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 how did we limit our hand? 2H can still be 19 points with 6 hearts right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 5H, pard will look at his hand, know that you have Club honors and bid 6H or pass as appropriate. (would 5NT by pard be pick a slam, GSF or asking for trouble?.....lol) Is it reasonable to expect pard to hold Ax(x) Kx(x) Ax QJxxxx or such for his bids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted June 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Dammit I knew that you Justin roflmao. Richie is the first person that agrees with my 4C call (sick minds think alike :P ) Give pard a vanilla Ax Kxx Axx QJxxx and we will play 4H when 7 is reasonable and 6 is odds on. Will pard cooperate with a slam try over our friv 3N? I seriously doubt it. I don't like Bens idea about raising clubs 1st. It will bury the hearts if we have a 6-2 fit permanently. As a matter of fact I would say 3C denies 6 hearts as a rule. And my 4C only shows at least the QC here.1st priority is to get to the best game - slam investigations come later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 how did we limit our hand? 2H can still be 19 points with 6 hearts right? I assume 1H=2c=3H is different from 1H=2c=2hWith that said sure we can have 14-16 but P will play me for 11-13 or worse. x = AJT9xxx=Txx = Kx Dealer Both vul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 I dont understand why if you can have 11-13 or 14-16 pard would play you for 11-13. This is the point of serious 3N to distinguish between max and min. Many 2/1 players that I know play 3H is solid (or maybe 1 loser) hearts in that auction. 2H is still your 11-19 or 20. If that is your range serious 3N shows the UPPER end of that, e.g 11-14=min 15-19=serious. This is for sure a great min hand, but I think that is all it is, not a serious 3N. But that is why this thread is here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 I dont understand why if you can have 11-13 or 14-16 pard would play you for 11-13. This is the point of serious 3N to distinguish between max and min. Many 2/1 players that I know play 3H is solid (or maybe 1 loser) hearts in that auction. 2H is still your 11-19 or 20. If that is your range serious 3N shows the UPPER end of that, e.g 11-14=min 15-19=serious. This is for sure a great min hand, but I think that is all it is, not a serious 3N. But that is why this thread is here. What is the difference between 3nt or 4h rebid by opener on this auction after 3h by responder? I have only played 3nt serious version so I can cue 4c to show ace but often minimum hand type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 4C=serious club cue. Like a hand you would have bid serious 3N on that has a club control.3N=I have a cuebid that I could make but my hand is not in the serious 3N range (like a hand you would cuebid with playing serious 3N)4H= uh... no cuebid to make. Inferentially good trumps (or a helluvalot of QJs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 It would seem to be a lot better to play 3♠ as the frivolous flag when hearts are trumps, so that one can cue 4♣ over partner's expected 3nt spade cue, without having overbid your hand quite so much. But with the limitations of the system given, I guess I'd rather bid 4♣ than 3nt since it's going to be hard for partner to be enthusiastic over 3nt missing the ♣AK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 I don't like Bens idea about raising clubs 1st. It will bury the hearts if we have a 6-2 fit permanently. As a matter of fact I would say 3C denies 6 hearts as a rule. And my 4C only shows at least the QC here.1st priority is to get to the best game - slam investigations come later. Let's see.. 2♥, by your own admission "2♥ doesn't promise 6". So 2♥ does not show six. The feature in your hand is club AK, which is why you are bending over backwards to show a "good hand" with 4♣ on this 11 hcp, empty heart suit, hand. And quite frankly rule where you must rebid a six card suit, but the rebid doesn't promise a six card suit, seems, to me too odd for words. Add to this some people play the 2♥ bid to be unlimited over 2♣ and now the 4♣ bid makes no sense whatsoever. .... Bid 3♣, make your life easier. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatrix45 Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Your agreements are 'Frivolous 3N' (where 3N denies slam interest) and a cue shows slam interest. ;) I have two questions. 1) I am assuming that my choices here are: cue bid, frivolous 3NT, and a fast arrival 4♥. In general, what does each bid show in your system? 2) What can I expect from partner? Would it normally be a game going hand with a club suit and three card heart support? And one observation. My cue bid in this auction looks to me to be "for free". It does not use up bidding space, so maybe the bottom of its range should be low enough to include the hand I hold. In the very old days, after a 1♠ - Pass - 3♠ (forcing) - Pass - ??? auction, bidding 4♠ constituted virtually a warning that my hand was a poor one for slam purposes. This hand having six trumps, three quick tricks and a secondary suit fit is much, much better than a minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 4C for me. This cue bid in partner's suit should I think show some type of secondary support - not just Ace of King - and sends the message that your club suit may provide a source of tricks for slam. After this, I will sign off in 4H; if partner can cue bid in both diamonds and spades, then I will complete my help type bidding with a further 5C bid. This should let partner know that QJxxx of clubs is worth 5 tricks to our side, and if he does happen to hold Axx, KQx, Ax, QJxxx we are off to the races. WinstonM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 It would seem to be a lot better to play 3♠ as the frivolous flag when hearts are trumps, so that one can cue 4♣ over partner's expected 3nt spade cue, without having overbid your hand quite so much. But with the limitations of the system given, I guess I'd rather bid 4♣ than 3nt since it's going to be hard for partner to be enthusiastic over 3nt missing the ♣AK. lol, pclayton's opp suggested this at the table too (3S being non-serious when hearts is the suit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted June 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Trixi: methods are not fast arrival so the 3H call just denies ability to make another call. Ben: Big difference between a 3C raise denying 6 hearts and a 2H rebid not promising 6. Say in your sequence I raise to 3C and pard gives me a 3H preference. Do I play pard for 2 or 3 card support? Is 3N now serious/ friv? Do we have a 7 or 8 card fit? Much confusion. 3C preempts our auction and buries hearts. And it leads to potential confusion later. Better to rebid 2H and allow pard to make a preference bid after his anticipated 2S or 2N and my 3C.Oh and 3C doesn't say anything about club honors or clarify cue bids later. I retract what I said earlier about 3C. I really dislike it upon reflection. One of my pards would say, "when you raised my clubs after you rebid hearts, you guaranteed 6H, otherwise why bid 2H in the 1st place"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 as a general rule, 5 controls is enough to take a peek at slam opposite a gf... i'm not in love with my hand, but i'd bid 4♣ because of the controls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Ben: Big difference between a 3C raise denying 6 hearts and a 2H rebid not promising 6. Say in your sequence I raise to 3C and pard gives me a 3H preference. Do I play pard for 2 or 3 card support? Is 3N now serious/ friv? Do we have a 7 or 8 card fit? Much confusion. Well.. .there is a huge difference.. lets look at your two auctions... 1H - 2C2H - 3H... . Here you play (see your own first post), serious (well inverse serious) 3NT, assuming 8 card fit... .when 2H can Easily be a five card suit. Partner is MUCH more likely to be endplayed into raising on 2 card support than here.... 1H - 2C3C - 3H Where you have found your a fit, partner might try 3D or 3S if interested in trying for NT... and since you didn't REBID hearts, is much more likely to have three hearts to raise here. A big advantage to this auction, however, is partner can after raising hearts here, pull out six key card blackwood next, and with this hand, nothing would make you happier. I really, can't understand your concern on the second auction.. the first auction is much more problematic. And on this hand, where YOU do have six hearts, if partner raises with a doubleton, no matter, you have an 8 card fit. Your concern about being raised seems, to be honest, totally backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Must admit I would think of bidding 3c not 2h at imps. Strong bias towards bidding where my hcp are before showing overall strength. My concern might be I do not have an outside entry to set up my hearts so may have to set up hearts first and then hope for 3-2 or 2-2 club break depending on p's hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Well.. .there is a huge difference.. lets look at your two auctions... 1H - 2C2H - 3H... . Here you play (see your own first post), serious (well inverse serious) 3NT, assuming 8 card fit... .when 2H can Easily be a five card suit. Partner is MUCH more likely to be endplayed into raising on 2 card support than here.... Unless you play that a 2♥ rebid specifically promises 6, then I would posit that responder should never raise on a doubleton. Responder should do just about anything else. Serious 3N is certainly on - but how can it be sensibly played unless the partnership is confident of an 8 card fit? Where you have found your a fit, partner might try 3D or 3S if interested in trying for NT... and since you didn't REBID hearts, is much more likely to have three hearts to raise here. A big advantage to this auction, however, is partner can after raising hearts here, pull out six key card blackwood next, and with this hand, nothing would make you happier. Ben - this counters your argument. If Responder is 'more likely' to have 3 card support, then how do we ever find our 6-2? Opener is ignoring the 6 bagger and responder is ignoring doubleton support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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