serious 3nt

[sceptic]

[hv=d=w&v=a&n=sa543hat83dq8732c&w=s97h74djt64cq9642&e=s86hkj652dk9ct875&s=skqjt2hq9da5cakj3]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♦    Pass  1♠

 Pass  2♠    Pass  3NT

 Pass  4♠    Pass  6♠

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

 

 

Hopefully my understanding of serious 3NT is that you have agreed a major so playing in NT is not an option (I may be wrong here, or as usual explanined myself badly)

 

Can someone give me the low down on this bidding

 

p opened (1 Diamond) I bid 1 spade pard raised me (2 spades) 12 -14 with 4 card spade support

 

I had the option to cue bid here as I was sure that even with minimum from my pard we should seriously consider 6 spades here,but I wanted to look at chances for 6nt or even 7 of something so I chose to force the issue of information from my p, so I chose the serious 3NT route (at least I hope that is what the bid is, it is certainly what I understand it to be)

 

anyway can some one put me straight if I have handled it badly please

[Guest Jlall]

3N is natural and non forcing, a choice of games. Depending on partnership style the raise to 2S is somewhere between "sometimes" and "often" a 3 card raise so 3N just gives a choice. 3N serious would make no sense here even if you ALWAYS have 4 for a raise as it would eat up alot of room needlessly. The best bid would be 3C and see what develops. You did reach an excellent (and cold) slam so all's well that ends well.

[Blofeld]

As I would understand the auction, the 3NT bid denies the ability to make any cue-bid at the 3 level. So it would have to be either an offer to play or a hand with slam interest despite no controls in the side suits (and thus presumably excellent trumps - perhaps something like ♠AKQJxx ♥xx ♦QJ ♣QJ). With your hand I would simply have bid 3♣ and perhaps continued with 3NT over 3♥ (promising a diamond control by implication).

[hrothgar]

3N is natural and non forcing, a choice of games. Depending on partnership style the raise to 2S is somewhere between "sometimes" and "often" a 3 card raise so 3N just gives a choice. 3N serious would make no sense here even if you ALWAYS have 4 for a raise as it would eat up alot of room needlessly. The best bid would be 3C and see what develops. You did reach an excellent (and cold) slam so all's well that ends well.

Disagree with this....

 

If partner is prone to raise on 3 card support, then 2NT is typically used as an artificial checkback. Blasting to 3NT and praying that partner will make an intelligent decision doesn't strike me as reasonable...

 

With this said and done, I don't think that you should use this as "serious" either...

If 2S unambiguously promises 4 pieces, then 3NT should be some kind of picture jump.

 

I also prefer a 3♣ rebid...

[pclayton]

Its not Serious 3N - its a choice of games with a 4=3=3=3 or so and good side suit stoppers. I do play 2N as a checkback for 3 card support, but that doesn't preclude 3N from being natural.

 

Start with 3♣. For us, this is a slam try. A subsequent 3N would then be Serious.

[sceptic]

I intended to bid 3 clubs, but I was trying to remember how to use serious 3nt at the table, as with some nice , there is nothing like screwing up and learning the hard way

 

would 3 clubs (by me) then 3 hearts (by p) then a jump to 6 spades have been a reasonable decision???

[Walddk]

Let's get this straight here. 3NT is only the "serious 3NT" when one side is in an uncontested game-forcing auction.

 

Since 2♠ does not establish a game-force, 3NT has nothing to do with the serious 3NT Eric Rodwell invented (popularized). 3NT is merely a choice of game with around 19 and a 5332 shape of some kind with scattered values. Could be 4333 if you play 4-card majors.

 

To Blofeld: 3 of a new suit is not a cue bid. It's either natural or a game trial bid, depending on agreement. Cue bids start at the 4-level when spades are set, in 3♠ if hearts are agreed.

 

Roland

[Blofeld]

Roland: I'm sorry, admittedly it depends on agreements. I play the bids as either game trials or as advanced cues (in which case it will be revealed as such when you later take further action).

[Walddk]

Roland: I'm sorry, admittedly it depends on agreements. I play the bids as either game trials or as advanced cues (in which case it will be revealed as such when you later take further action).

Right, but 3♣ itself is not a cue bid. I would have bid 3♣ myself, and then perhaps my partner would wake up and recover (4♥) after his serious underbid on his first turn. That hand is much too good for a single raise.

 

Roland

[Winstonm]

My understanding of serious 3N is that it only applies after an 8-card or better fit has been uncovered at the 3-level. 1S-2C-2S-3S-3N.

[Winstonm]

Just a note: My partner and I play 2-way game tries over a major raises and found them highly useful - but there was a problem.

 

1C-1S

2S-3C/D/H

 

We play that 2N asks for a "feature-type bid" while direct 3-level bids are short suit game tries. Problem became how do you initiate a slam try?

 

We found a pretty easy answer: Serious Self Raise: 1C-1S-2S-3S: Slam try.

 

WinstonM

[luke warm]

i wouldn't have thought the 3nt bid was a serious slam try, at the table... as roland says, there's no game force for one thing

[Free]

For me here, 3NT is natural and NF! It's made on a balanced hand with exactly 4 card ♠. Serious 3NT isn't even close! Start with 3♣, partner will interpret it as gametry, and if you continue to bid after a signoff it's a clear cuebid.

 

Serious 3NT is only valid in GF auctions (as Walddk said). The use of it in this bidding makes me think about the way people started using Gerber: way too much, and at the wrong moments.

[Gerben42]

What Free and Walddk said.

 

To try for slam, make a game try first and then cuebid for example.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

for me 3NT would be serious, simply by partnership

agreement.

 

Your given rule: If a mayor fit is found, 3NT is never

to play, is the rule, we follow, always.

 

The advantage: The rule is simple, foolproof.

 

The disadvantage: The rule is simple

 

If you are better than me and / or have a

better memory, you can try and give a 3NT bid,

made by opener / responder different meanings

depending on the auction.

 

I stick with the simple rule, because even in world

class events lots of IMP's fly out of the window, because

of disagreements about the meaning of bid, maybe it never

occcurred before, maybe one of the players got tired and

forgot the discusion made 3 years ago.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Walddk]

for me 3NT would be serious, simply by partnership

agreement.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

You are of course most welcome to change the definition of when 3NT is the "serious 3NT", but I recommend that you follow the rule regarding the game-forcing auction.

 

A single raise doesn't establish a game force; I am sure we agree on that aspect. To let opener's 3NT rebid be a serious slam try makes little sense. How can an opener who didn't open 2♣ be seriously interested in slam just because responder has shown 6 points (distribution included)?

 

If he really is heading for slam already, there is something basically wrong with his 1♠ opening.

 

Roland

[fifee]

I think Serious 3NT has its place but should be discussed before using. My preference is only after game force established and only after major suit fit is agreed.

 

Bid 3♣ with this hand (hopefully my partner will think its a help suit game try or whatever we have agreed). If pd declines my invitation to game and I continue with a new suit, then partner knows I am interested in slam, not game.

 

If partner signs off at 3 of our major and I continue on and bid 3NT, then it is Serious 3NT.

[P_Marlowe]

for me 3NT would be serious, simply by partnership

agreement.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

You are of course most welcome to change the definition of when 3NT is the "serious 3NT", but I recommend that you follow the rule regarding the game-forcing auction.

 

A single raise doesn't establish a game force; I am sure we agree on that aspect. To let opener's 3NT rebid be a serious slam try makes little sense. How can an opener who didn't open 2♣ be seriously interested in slam just because responder has shown 6 points (distribution included)?

 

If he really is heading for slam already, there is something basically wrong with his 1♠ opening.

 

Roland

Hi Roland,

 

to make sure, that I did not dream, as happens often :D ,

I looked it up again, but 1S was a response to a 1D opening

bid, so 3NT it self creates a game forcing situation.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I did dream, writing 1C instead of 1D ...

 

PSS: And even if it was 1S opening 3NT would still be serious,

well useless as it maybe, but the charm is simplicity.

=> Because it is useless, one could easily find a more suitebale

meaning, but one needs to be sure, that both partners have the

memory power to remeber it.

For me it would be choice of games.

[Walddk]

Hi Roland,

 

to make sure, that I did not dream, as happens often :D ,

I looked it up again, but 1S was a response to a 1D opening

bid, so 3NT it self creates a game forcing situation.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

You are right, but it changes nothing. Opener's raise to 2♠ does not establish a game force, so per definition 3NT by responder next is not the "serious 3NT". Feel free to play it lika that if you prefer, but much more often will you need 3NT as a choice of games with something like

 

J953

KJ9

Q43

AQJ

 

If opener is unhappy about NT, he can always correct to 4♠. All you are telling him is that your hand is well suited for a NT contract.

 

Roland

[luke warm]

Your given rule: If a mayor fit is found, 3NT is never

to play, is the rule, we follow, always.

this isn't true... fred defines serious 3nt as (paraphrasing) "an 8 card or longer major suit fit in a game forcing auction"... how oh how did 2s on the example auction establish a game force? if it did not establish a game force, then opener (the 2s bidder) can not be expected to understand 3nt as anything other than an offer to play, regardless of responder's intent

[slothy]

Pedantry, Rolly, pedantry.. :D

 

PS No idea what this word means, but i hope it makes me sound intelligent.

 

PPS My angle on this, and i coincidentally agree with Roland, however much it pains me: the 3NT in this auction is NOT serious with regards to my understanding of this convention; it is just offering p a choice of games with most likely a 4-3-3-3 shape (or even more balanced :P )

 

PPPS Ah well going for my 5th tequila slammer... this Internet Cafe sucks...

 

PPPPS Nothing to say, just that 4 Ps looks sooooooo sexy (and the Tequila taking effect)

[Winstonm]

As is the case of almost all conventions, serious 3N was developed to solve a problem - that being how do you separate a "serious" slam try - one based on overall strength - from a mild slam try with minimum hands that have shape and controls when you are out of room. This occurs when the major suit fit in not disclosed until you reach the 3 level. In other auctions, it is simply not needed.

 

WinstonM

[Stephen Tu]

The problem serious 3nt is designed to solve is how much you need to cue bid when both players are basically unlimited in strength. Otherwise you get the problem of both partners cue-bidding in case the other one has extras, and you get overboard. Or you miss a slam because you refused to cue without extras, but this time partner had them & needed you to cue.

 

In the auction in question, 1m-1M-2M-?, you don't need serious 3nt as opener is sharply limited. You need 3nt as natural if the raise can be done on 3 cards. If the raise absolutely guarantees 4, then 3nt could be used artificially, but "serious 3nt" won't be the best use of the bid. (Perhaps it can be used to distinguish voids/singletons).

 

I only play serious 3nt (or more usually frivolous 3nt) after "game forcing major suit agreement at 3 level when neither partner is limited". Otherwise the natural meaning is often far too valuable to give up.

[keylime]

I play serious 3NT only when trumps have been set somewhere in the auction. In essence with us, only in a strong club or a slammish trump auction.

 

Nothing wrong with playing 3NT as choice of games with balanced hands.

[pclayton]

I think that Serious 3N could still work after 1 grape - 1 banana - 2 bananas. You just can't bid it directly after the single raise. Temporize with something else 1st and then bid 3N.

 

I agree with Stephens comment that Serious 3N is especially useful when either partner is unlimited, yet Opener can still have a wide range for the single raise, especially in context of todays garbage openings that seem to be in vogue.