4 level interference, how do you ... (2)

[Cyberyeti]

This time your partner's at it.

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sk7hak7642dak6cj2&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=4sp]133|200[/hv]

[jillybean]

Scoring?

[Cyberyeti]

Scoring?

MPs

[jillybean]

Pass

 

I think that is what I should do but if I ask for keycards and hear ONE, I can signoff in 5S, with 2 I bid 6S (wrong!)

[pescetom]

I pass and score (an admittedly rare) one for playing Namyats.

[Cyberyeti]

I pass and score (an admittedly rare) one for playing Namyats.

 

Namyats doesn't help you tell the difference between a stiff club and 3 small, 8 spades to the ace and a stiff or void club is plenty

[jillybean]

4♠ has removed all of our room to cue bid. If you cue 5♦ will partner bid 6♠ with a first round ♣ control, or with a second round control?

 

Hold on, I cue 5♥ showing both red suit controls.

 

5♥ can't be to play, surely.

[Winstonm]

Completely dependent on who I'm playing with and our agreements and the discipline involved. With my normal partner, now deceased, this even vulnerability 4S will be made on a hand that has no worse than 7 1/2 winners, usually 8. Missing AK, AK, that gets in down to at worst AQJxxxxx and the club K. It could be A. So the worst case is for me is 50-50 so bid 4N and if he has 2, I bid the grand, if 1, then settle for an more iffy 6.

 

There is a lot to be said for disciplined bidding.

[jillybean]

There is a lot to be said for disciplined bidding.

As one of the converted, I agree.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&e=sk7hak7642dak6cj2&d=w&v=b&a=4sp?]133|200| CyberYeti 'This time your partner's at it.'

++++++++++++++++++++

Hands transposed to make partner dealer. I rank

1. 5♥ = ASK (Sharples convention: the suit below the suit about which you are worried).

2. 4N = RKC Partner might have 2 aces (or none).

3. 6♠. Punt.

4. Pass.

[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

I'll give you a clue, partner has AJ1098xxx, Q, (x, Qxx) which bid gives you the best chance of finding out which he has ?

 

I've not heard of the Sharples convention, but how does it work ? do you make different bids with first/second round controls ?

[sfi]

I would bid 5C, asking for control. I thought this is fairly standard?

 

Now partner can sign off with no control, cue with first round control, bid slam with a singleton or bid 5NT with a guarded king.

[mikeh]

4♠ has removed all of our room to cue bid. If you cue 5♦ will partner bid 6♠ with a first round ♣ control, or with a second round control?

 

Hold on, I cue 5♥ showing both red suit controls.

 

5♥ can't be to play, surely.

I understand the logic behind 5H showing both red suits, since one can bid 5C with clubs, intending to bid 5H over 5D to show that control, while keeping grand open. However, that’s the sort of call one makes in the post-mortem rather than at the table, unless one has previously discussed this.

 

Also, note that you are creating a roadmap for the defenders.

[nige1]

I'll give you a clue, partner has AJ1098xxx, Q, (x, Qxx) which bid gives you the best chance of finding out which he has ? I've not heard of the Sharples convention, but how does it work ? do you make different bids with first/second round controls ?

IMO, the Sharples brothers were world-best bidders,

• in theory: They invented and refined many conventions that withstand the test of time and
• in practice: They retired unbeaten from the Bridge-Magazine bidding-competition. They enjoyed domestic success with fellow Acol gurus like Marx, Amesbury and co.

 

After partner opens 4M, a new suit asks for control in the next suit. Simple reply scheme:

 

• Without control, you sign off in the trump suit
• With 2nd round control you cue-bid it. I suppose, here, you might improvise 5NT.
• With 1st round control, you cue-bid if possible. Or you can simply bid slam.

[jillybean]

I would bid 5C, asking for control. I thought this is fairly standard?

 

Now partner can sign off with no control, cue with first round control, bid slam with a singleton or bid 5NT with a guarded king.

Is this standard after a preempt?

[sfi]

Is this standard after a preempt?

I thought it was - I've been playing it for decades with people in multiple countries. But nobody else has mentioned it, so maybe not.

 

You give up the chance of playing game in your own suit after partner has preempted in game, but the hands where that is right are rare compared to the times you need to ask about a specific suit.

 

It looks like the same thing as what Nigel is proposing, except you bid the suit you want to ask about.

[apollo1201]

I thought it was - I've been playing it for decades with people in multiple countries. But nobody else has mentioned it, so maybe not.

 

You give up the chance of playing game in your own suit after partner has preempted in game, but the hands where that is right are rare compared to the times you need to ask about a specific suit.

 

It looks like the same thing as what Nigel is proposing, except you bid the suit you want to ask about.

Late in the thread because of time zones (and a late wakeup, I confess), but interrogative at the 5 level (or a stressful 4S above 4H, please dont pass!) is quite common here and I said ok 5C wtp when I saw the hand (except you’ll get a C lead and maybe a bottom if partner rejects) and had to read a few replies before someone mentionned this.

 

Over the interro, 1st step is no control (so that you never bid above 5M), 2nd step is 2nd round (K or single) and 3rd is 1st round (A or void). A second relay can distinguish between shortness or honor control.

 

With the given hand it is then easy to place the contract, remembering partner shouldn’t have two aces. QJ 8th or 9th with CA and AQ or AJ 8th if CK.

 

And too bad if they have A 8th and CA and we have 7 by ruffing out H for discarding the C or D losers.

 

But keycarding to address this rare hand will leave you clueless when partner bids 1 ace, and opening leader had a natural CA or CK lead nevertheless.

 

As a side, I heard someone once having a special BW for preeempts but can’t remember what it was. Does anyone play a special thing?

[Cyberyeti]

OK, I'm glad this prompted some debate, we have no agreed methods here, I had AJ1098xx, Q, x, Qxx, partner bid 5♦ to try to indicate a club issue, I bid 5♠ as my hand was crap and I didn't have a club control so had little to think about. The defence didn't get the inference, 5+2 for most of the matchpoints. Several people were in 6-1 as this prompted the opening leader to lead his unsupported ace.

 

Sharples will get you 5= (maybe unless you psyche a club control and throw the Q under the A).

 

Prize for 5N= in theory

[Joe_Old]

As a side, I heard someone once having a special BW for preeempts but can’t remember what it was. Does anyone play a special thing?

 

I have played a BW where only the AKQ of Opener's suit is described, ignoring any outside cards:

 

first step: no A or K

second step: one A or K

third step: A and K without Q

fourth step: A and K with Q

 

It is used only where Responder has the side suits covered and is trying to judge slam in Opener's suit. It is initiated by Responder bidding Clubs at the cheapest level, (except Diamonds after a Club pre empt), leaving room for Responder to investigate interest in a Major suit.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Joe_Old

[paulg]

As a side, I heard someone once having a special BW for preeempts but can't remember what it was. Does anyone play a special thing?

Pre-emptive Roman Keycard Blackwood is fairly popular and I think it was in one of Bergen's books.

 

Over a 3♦/3♥/3♠ opening bid, then 4♣ asks and the responses are:

 

4♦ - zero key cards

4♥ - one key card without the queen

4♠ - one key card with the queen

4NT - two key cards without the queen

5♣ - two key cards with the queen

 

Over a 3♣ opening, then 4♦ is used.

[apollo1201]

Thanks both for your hints.

 

I found another one after some research and it looks like the one I had heard of, which is at 4NT but coping for the fact that partner has at most 1 ace + KQ trumps. It says 5C no ace (5D asks for one or tow between K and Q), 5D one ace, 5H one ace + K or Q and 5s one ace + both KQ.

 

Seems playable as well over 3 and 4 level openings.

[mikeh]

I have played a BW where only the AKQ of Opener's suit is described, ignoring any outside cards:

 

first step: no A or K

second step: one A or K

third step: A and K without Q

fourth step: A and K with Q

 

It is used only where Responder has the side suits covered and is trying to judge slam in Opener's suit. It is initiated by Responder bidding Clubs at the cheapest level, (except Diamonds after a Club pre empt), leaving room for Responder to investigate interest in a Major suit.

What would you open with, say, x Ax xxx KJ10xxxx white v red 1st seat?

 

Not opening 3C is, imo, tantamount to giving up.

 

Many years ago, two friends who were solid flight B players told me that they never opened a weak 2M with a side Ace.

 

I asked them what they’d open with xx KQ109xx xx Axx

 

They both said: 2H

[pescetom]

Pre-emptive Roman Keycard Blackwood is fairly popular and I think it was in one of Bergen's books.

 

Over a 3♦/3♥/3♠ opening bid, then 4♣ asks and the responses are:

 

4♦ - zero key cards

4♥ - one key card without the queen

4♠ - one key card with the queen

4NT - two key cards without the queen

5♣ - two key cards with the queen

 

Over a 3♣ opening, then 4♦ is used.

 

Italians call this "poor man's RKCB".

I prefer to play it as a kickback with normal 14032-2+ responses, this saves considerable memory load and is almost as efficient overall.

[Joe_Old]

What would you open with, say, x Ax xxx KJ10xxxx white v red 1st seat?

 

Not opening 3C is, imo, tantamount to giving up.

 

Many years ago, two friends who were solid flight B players told me that they never opened a weak 2M with a side Ace.

 

I asked them what they’d open with xx KQ109xx xx Axx

 

They both said: 2H

 

What a bizarre comment.

 

The point I was making is that TWO kinds of Ace asking bids are available. If all Responder needs to know is the quality of Opener's suit, use the trump suit specific BW. Responder still has the regular RKC bid to find out if Opener has an outside Ace.

[mikeh]

What a bizarre comment.

 

The point I was making is that TWO kinds of Ace asking bids are available. If all Responder needs to know is the quality of Opener's suit, use the trump suit specific BW. Responder still has the regular RKC bid to find out if Opener has an outside Ace.

 

 

If you meant you had TWO methods, you should have said so....and you wouldn’t need to write TWO if you had done so, lol. Shouting would be unnecessary.

 

As for the merits, I think they are not well designed.

 

You only need your stated methods when you have a side void. I’ve played a lot of bridge...catering to asking for keycards after partner preempts, and you have a side void and the opps don’t bid....well, you’ll be waiting a long time for it to happen twice (I guess it happened once, so someone had this bright idea). Meanwhile, you have to jump to 4N otherwise, which may prove inconvenient, depending on his responses. Which is why using 4C ( or 4D over 3C) was invented.