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Wrong in so many ways.

jillybean
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TylerE

TylerE

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Posted

Cast my vote in with the 1♠ openers.

 

I hate opening 2♣ on any hand, and with a stiff heart I'm not worried about 1♠ getting passed out.

 

Plus, while we're very control rich, the trick taking potential of this hand on it's own is nothing amazing.

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mikeh

mikeh

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It will be no surprise that I join the 1S brigade. This isn’t even in the top ten of strong hands I open at the one-level. I don’t think I’ve ever missed a good game and, strange though it may seem, we tend to do better on slam bidding on those hands than do people who open 2C. I think it’s because, when we have small or, especially, grand slams available, partner gets to participate in the auction far more informatively than after we preempt the auction via 2C.

 

Having miscounted my hand...maybe I thought I held AKQxx K AKQx Axx...I bid 2S. This is NOT a 2N rebid, especially after partner can’t hold the heart Ace. We can still get to notrump if need be.

 

Of course, it’s easy to see disaster lurking.

 

I’m screwed over 2N by partner. I am absolutely not bidding 3D on this terrible hand...I think I pass 2N, but then he’ll have x QJxx QJxx QJ10x (but with that hand he should bid 3N) and 3N is cold. But if I bid 3N, he’ll have x Jxx xxxx xxxxx and we get killed

 

I’m screwed over 3C...I’d have to pass and, again, maybe miss game

 

I’m even screwed over 3D, though I’d bid 5D just in case.

 

And 3H endplays me into a probably hopeless 3N.

 

Btw, one of the ways to improve your bidding is to think about rebids. Think about them before you open.

 

If you open 2C, and partner bids 2H, you’re in deep trouble.

 

Meanwhile, if he would have responded 2D, the odds are extremely high that he won’t pass 1S (no good player need 6 hcp to respond to a 1 suit opening), and he’ll never pass with spade support and a hand that makes 4S a good contract, nor a hand that makes 3N or 5D good.

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DavidKok

DavidKok

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I'm a bit late, but here's another vote for 1♠.

 

Given the 2♣, I like 2♠ on the second round. All alternatives are worse.

 

Our hand is rapidly getting weaker and weaker on the auction. We have little trick-taking potential, no spade fit, partner does not have the ace of hearts so that king is looking mighty shifty. I'm assuming 3♣ is natural and shows at least 5 (what is partner supposed to do with 2=4=3=4? I guess if all bids are natural 2NT is an option, though I hate bidding NT with the weak hand on this auction).

I think 4♠ is not making, and 5♣ only has chances if partner has some nice shape and maybe QJxxxx of clubs. Might 3NT have chances opposite something like xx, QJx, xxx, QJxxx? Actually, if the club king is third we have no communication and the contract is doomed. We could try 3♦, allowing partner to bid 3NT with heart values or 3♠ (false preference) without (which I will pass). But if partner has real clubs, maybe 1=3=3=6 or the like, we are never getting out below 5♣ which might be hopeless. Also if partner has diamond support they may well raise (on only 3, perhaps) and then we are in deep trouble. Also even the somewhat-maximum hand I constructed isn't making 3NT.

The more I think about it, the less I like my odds. Pass for me. At least we get to play it and save poor partner from that fate.

 

It is possible that partner has all or most of the missing queens and jacks and a small slam may even be on, but I have no way to find out (unless 3♣ comes with a range description).

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Cyberyeti

Cyberyeti

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I'm a bit late, but here's another vote for 1♠.

 

Given the 2♣, I like 2♠ on the second round. All alternatives are worse.

 

Our hand is rapidly getting weaker and weaker on the auction. We have little trick-taking potential, no spade fit, partner does not have the ace of hearts so that king is looking mighty shifty. I'm assuming 3♣ is natural and shows at least 5 (what is partner supposed to do with 2=4=3=4? I guess if all bids are natural 2NT is an option, though I hate bidding NT with the weak hand on this auction).

I think 4♠ is not making, and 5♣ only has chances if partner has some nice shape and maybe QJxxxx of clubs. Might 3NT have chances opposite something like xx, QJx, xxx, QJxxx? Actually, if the club king is third we have no communication and the contract is doomed. We could try 3♦, allowing partner to bid 3NT with heart values or 3♠ (false preference) without (which I will pass). But if partner has real clubs, maybe 1=3=3=6 or the like, we are never getting out below 5♣ which might be hopeless. Also if partner has diamond support they may well raise (on only 3, perhaps) and then we are in deep trouble. Also even the somewhat-maximum hand I constructed isn't making 3NT.

The more I think about it, the less I like my odds. Pass for me. At least we get to play it and save poor partner from that fate.

 

It is possible that partner has all or most of the missing queens and jacks and a small slam may even be on, but I have no way to find out (unless 3♣ comes with a range description).

 

Your sample hand 3N has decent chances, even better if ♦9 is present), 5♣ has good chances.

 

This hand exemplifies my issues with the 2♥ played in this way, does partner have x, xxx, xxx, xxxxxx or Qx, QJx, QJx, QJ10xx ? and is why I would like a second negative if played in this style.

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LBengtsson

LBengtsson

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5431/4441 and 5440 shape do not bid well after a 2♣ opening, especially if longer suits are minor. this is what you are seeing now when responder is weak. is a 2♣ opening still a gf whatever garbage responder has? that is why there are so many comments about opening 1♠ on this hand, and why it is right action.

 

big thing to realise is when you have so many high card points, the other hands will have so many fewer points and usually a weak hand. if I had a dollar for every time I opened 2♣ and found partner with <6hcp I would have quite a few dollars extra in my bank. lol.

 

most players say that any 22+ hand should be opened 2♣ but that is not right as you have found out. strange thing also is that hands play better with similar number of points each opposite each other opposed to one big hand opposite a weak hand. with a big hand you have to play away from it on many times during play so you are leading away from strength.

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jillybean

jillybean

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What is 3♣ ? is one of 3♣/2N better than the other or just different ? And how many clubs does it show ?

3♣ is a suit and given the initial 2♥bust, enough values to invite game.

2N is similarly limited by the 2♥ bid, I'd have a tough time constructing a hand that would want to bid 2N after 2♣ 2♥ 2♠

 

Is a 2♣ opening still a gf whatever garbage responder has?

After the 2♥ response, responder can pass any bid.

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mw64ahw

mw64ahw

Posted
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5431/4441 and 5440 shape do not bid well after a 2♣ opening, especially if longer suits are minor. this is what you are seeing now when responder is weak. is a 2♣ opening still a gf whatever garbage responder has? that is why there are so many comments about opening 1♠ on this hand, and why it is right action.

 

big thing to realise is when you have so many high card points, the other hands will have so many fewer points and usually a weak hand. if I had a dollar for every time I opened 2♣ and found partner with <6hcp I would have quite a few dollars extra in my bank. lol.

 

most players say that any 22+ hand should be opened 2♣ but that is not right as you have found out. strange thing also is that hands play better with similar number of points each opposite each other opposed to one big hand opposite a weak hand. with a big hand you have to play away from it on many times during play so you are leading away from strength.

 

I use 2♣-2X-3Y as Str 4441s with Y being the bid below the singleton so this works well. I don't mind 5440 especially if 5 is a minor. I also concluded that a Multi-2♣ & Multi-2♦ helps to define the longer suit with the 54 hands so I run into less of an issue with these.

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paulg

paulg

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[hv=pc=n&e=sakj82hkdakt3ca97&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p2cp2hp2sp3cp?]133|200[/hv]

When I don't know what to do, my normal style is to find the cheapest sensible bid and give us a little space to try and find the right spot. In this case that theory is not really needed since 3♦ looks pretty clear.

 

After 3♠ I can continue with 4♣ and over 3♥ I would probably bid 3NT, although this reflects the fact that I don't really have a 2♣ opener. If partner raises diamonds, I can try and go back to clubs.

 

 

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Winstonm

Winstonm

Posted
Posted

As long as partner's 3C bid is a suit then we are playing this in clubs or nt. The weak hand's suit should be trump if at all possible. I have support. I see no reason to confuse the issue so I plan to support clubs. There is not enough information to bid game. Can partner have x, Jxx, Qxx, Jxxxxx? Or something more makeable with x, Qxx, xxx, QJxxxx.

 

The bigger question is: what else could responder do with: x, xxx, xxx, Jxxxxx over 2S? Would that hand still bid 2H initially? And there seems to be no second negative so we are guessing at this point. My instincts tell me to pass - but I think I shouldn't be so negative so I will give it one try with 4C, hoping that isn't forcing.

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mikeh

mikeh

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3♣ is a suit and given the initial 2♥bust, enough values to invite game.

2N is similarly limited by the 2♥ bid, I'd have a tough time constructing a hand that would want to bid 2N after 2♣ 2♥ 2♠

 

 

After the 2♥ response, responder can pass any bid.

 

This is not a good idea (that responder can pass any bid after 2H).

 

While rare, there are two suited hands that are simply too strong to open at the one level.

 

I once held AKQJ9 AKJ9x A AK

 

Fortunately partner opened a weak 2D and we had gadgets that made it easy to reach 7N ( he held xx Qx KJxxxx xxx)

 

But had I opened, and he’d bid 2H (make his hand xx Qxx xxxxx xxx, as one example) he’d better not be passing 2S by me.

 

The way I’ve always played the 2H negative response is that the only non-game bid responder can pass on the second round is 2N.

 

2C is forcing to 2N, 3S or 4 of any other suit.

 

So 2C 2H 3H is forcing. Here, 2C 2H 2S is forcing

 

As for rebidding 2N, what else is he to do with, say, x Qxxx J10xx Jxxx?

 

Or any weaker hand of the same shape?

 

Of course, one corollary of this approach is that one soon learns to be careful about opening bad hands with 2C, but that’s a feature, not a bug.

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jillybean

jillybean

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This is not a good idea (that responder can pass any bid after 2H).

 

While rare, there are two suited hands that are simply too strong to open at the one level.

 

I once held AKQJ9 AKJ9x A AK

 

Fortunately partner opened a weak 2D and we had gadgets that made it easy to reach 7N ( he held xx Qx KJxxxx xxx)

 

But had I opened, and he’d bid 2H (make his hand xx Qxx xxxxx xxx, as one example) he’d better not be passing 2S by me.

 

The way I’ve always played the 2H negative response is that the only non-game bid responder can pass on the second round is 2N.

 

2C is forcing to 2N, 3S or 4 of any other suit.

 

So 2C 2H 3H is forcing. Here, 2C 2H 2S is forcing

 

As for rebidding 2N, what else is he to do with, say, x Qxxx J10xx Jxxx?

 

Or any weaker hand of the same shape?

 

Of course, one corollary of this approach is that one soon learns to be careful about opening bad hands with 2C, but that’s a feature, not a bug.

Yes, our 2♣ 2♥ structure is broken. We play it this way, forcing opener to jump with a self sufficient suit or a game in nt.

I don't know what I would do with AKQJ9 AKJ9x A AK

 

I don't remember if this is how I was taught, picked it up or we simply butchered the 2♣ 2♥, perhaps a response to opening "all" 22+ or gf hands, 2♣

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