BPO-003A

[the hog]

4D splinter. I don't mind Richard's 4C bid if it can be interpreted that way. Certainly 1C 1S 4C would show solid C and 4 card S support, so as a corollary 4C now could certainly show the given hand.

[P_Marlowe]

4S.

 

Hopefully we play 2NT in this seq. artificial,

in which case 2S says, p I know, you have a great

hand, but I am dead.

 

One may construct hands, 6S making, but I

have great doubts, that one can come up with

hands for responder, with which slam is better

than 50% most of the time.

 

One open question, I could not find the answer in

the system notes: Is the reverse in BBO Advanced

gameforcing?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

4♦, with a pick-up p I would certainly make this non-confusing bid.

 

I would like to have better spades and lesser clubs. Also, I would like to have a singleton instead of a void. But even if we play X-blackwood, 5♦ might take us too high.

[bearmum]

I went for 3♠ --- I have already shown a big hand by reversing BUT P has not done anything more than rebid his (presumably 5-6) ♠s ;)

[bearmum]

I went for a simple 3♠. 5♦ looks like it might work; I hadn't considered that.

 

Do the 4♣ bidders think that it shows a 3-4-0-6 shape precisely? I would have thought that it was just the cheapest force in clubs.

again, I would not take 3S as a forcing bid.

Is it necessary to make a 2nd forcing bid ( after the 2♥ reverse? ) ;)

[joker_gib]

2♠ by partner is weak (5-6 HCP) and he probably has some points lost in ♦.

 

I cannot see any hand to have a good slam so I will go for the practical 4♠ and hope it will make !

[Walddk]

You seem to forget that weak jump shifts are part of the system, so we can rule out quite a few hands partner can have. However, playing WJS doesn't mean that his 2♠ rebid shows a game invitational hand with a 6-card suit after a reverse. On the contrary!

 

If he has game invitational+ values, he should rebid 3♠ over 2♥. In other words: Responder is weak (2♠ is passable as I play it) with exactly 5 spades.

 

Consequently, slam is remote, if not non-existent. I have went through all the hands partner might have on this auction, and I found one where he might rebid 2♠ and where we might have a slam on.

 

A109xxx

K

xxxx

xx

 

This hand is perhaps too good for an initial jump to 2♠ and not good enough to invite game. 4♠ by opener is probably enough, but I don't mind 4♦ (splinter). If he, unlikely though, should have AKxxxx and out his next bid will surely be 6♠.

 

But I wouldn't be surprised if even 4♠ goes down.

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

You seem to forget that weak jump shifts are part of the system, so we can rule out quite a few hands partner can have. However, playing WJS doesn't mean that his 2♠ rebid shows a game invitational hand with a 6-card suit after a reverse. On the contrary!

Hi Roland,

 

thanks for the hint, I really did not think about that,

but than slam chances are approaching zero, if partner

holds exactly 5 spades in this seq, and 2S has to be

weak and non forcing.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

I think 2♠ is forcing in BBO-advanced. If responder has 5-7 HCPs with a 5-card spades, there is not much gained by passing 2♠ anyway:

 

Opener could have a 1435, in which case 2♠ isn't better than 2NT.

Or 2425 but in this case he must have extras or he would have opened 1NT.

Or a 6-card clubs in which case we can still sign off in 3♣.

Or 3-card spades support in which case 3♠ should be ok.

[han]

I assumed that 2S showed 5+ spades, is forcing but doesn't promise extra. I believe that the plurality of North American experts plays this. As BBO-standard seems to be based upon mainstream US methods, it should probably include this treatment. I think that the discussion is quite useless if we have no agreement about 2S.

 

I voted for 4S, but I like 4D (which I agree has to show a void) and 4C (If this really does show this hand) better.

[kgr]

You seem to forget that weak jump shifts are part of the system, so we can rule out quite a few hands partner can have. However, playing WJS doesn't mean that his 2♠ rebid shows a game invitational hand with a 6-card suit after a reverse. On the contrary!

 

If he has game invitational+ values, he should rebid 3♠ over 2♥. In other words: Responder is weak (2♠ is passable as I play it) with exactly 5 spades.

I didn't think about this.

I play WJS as weak (0-6 pts). Does the 2♠ bid in that case show extras or a 5-card (and with a 6 card he should always bid 3♠)?

What is the range of WJS in BBO advanced?

 

My choice was 4♦

[P_Marlowe]

I think 2♠ is forcing in BBO-advanced. If responder has 5-7 HCPs with a 5-card spades, there is not much gained by passing 2♠ anyway:

 

Opener could have a 1435, in which case 2♠ isn't better than 2NT.

Or 2425 but in this case he must have extras or he would have opened 1NT.

Or a 6-card clubs in which case we can still sign off in 3♣.

Or 3-card spades support in which case 3♠ should be ok.

Regarding 2S versus 2NT and the case opener holds a long

suit of its own:

 

Most of the time 2S will play better then 2NT or 3 of

openers suit , because most of the time the weak hand

will have only one asset: long trumps and no out

side entry.

 

Ths statement is made by a person, who does

not play WJS, but this statement still holds true,

when responder is limited to precisely 5 cards,

which needs not to be case, depending on style

regarding WJS.

 

Regarding 2425: Hopefully off shape NT openings

are not part of the system. I dont mind them, if the

right hands comes, but I sinisterly hope, that I am

not requiered to open every 2-4-2-5 hand with NT,

when holding 17 HCP.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ochinko]

Obviously not popular and probably a bad decision, but I bid 3D. Usually you do that to find a stopper and stop in 3NT, but I would shift 3NT to 4Sp.

 

What would get me excited is if my partner denies a diamond stopper, meaning that we don't have wasted values there. Now I am going to explore a slam.

 

Petko

[Guest Jlall]

I went for a simple 3♠. 5♦ looks like it might work; I hadn't considered that.

 

Do the 4♣ bidders think that it shows a 3-4-0-6 shape precisely? I would have thought that it was just the cheapest force in clubs.

again, I would not take 3S as a forcing bid.

Is it necessary to make a 2nd forcing bid ( after the 2♥ reverse? ) :)

well since reverses are certainly not forcing to game, and partner makes a bid that could be a minimum hand, yes I would think some bids must be non forcing otherwise the reverse was a GF

[inquiry]

As usual I will post the panel replies, one hand at a time. This time, however, I will also post all their votes in the original posting in table format, updating the table as I post their comments on each hand as I go along. Also as usual, I will wait a few days before posting all the panels votes so as not to stifle the discussion of the hands.

 

This hand, however, I have already posted a follow up poll about, in an effort to get a better feel for what the community thinks. I believe whole-heartedly that justin is correct that reverses ARE NOT GAME force. This has important implication because if 3S was now forcing, you could bid 3S to show shortness in diamonds (bid three suits natually, short in fourth). You can also jump to 4S or 4D to show the same, diamond shortness (theoretically I guess, you could be 2-4-2-5 with short diamonds and just too dang strong to stay out of game and bid 4S I guess).

 

So, to start off the unofficial panel response to this problem, let me say that none (so far) discussed the possibility of bidding 3S, nor mentioned rather they think that bid is forcing or not. However, my feeling from their responses is that 3♠ would NOT be forcing over 2♠... and right now, the even number responses in the Ingberman poll are way ahead (even number has 3♠ raise as non-forcing). So I think we will soon decide at least for the auction D (the 3S raise), that this is not forcing --- just as Justin states --- but time will tell, the poll is still open.

 

Ben

[P_Marlowe]

As usual I will post the panel replies, one hand at a time. This time, however, I will also post all their votes in the original posting in table format, updating the table as I post their comments on each hand as I go along. Also as usual, I will wait a few days before posting all the panels votes so as not to stifle the discussion of the hands.

 

This hand, however, I have already posted a follow up poll about, in an effort to get a better feel for what the community thinks. I believe whole-heartedly that justin is correct that reverses ARE NOT GAME force. This has important implication because if 3S was now forcing, you could bid 3S to show shortness in diamonds (bid three suits natually, short in fourth). You can also jump to 4S or 4D to show the same, diamond shortness (theoretically I guess, you could be 2-4-2-5 with short diamonds and just too dang strong to stay out of game and bid 4S I guess).

 

So, to start off the unofficial panel response to this problem, let me say that none (so far) discussed the possibility of bidding 3S, nor mentioned rather they think that bid is forcing or not. However, my feeling from their responses is that 3♠ would NOT be forcing over 2♠... and right now, the even number responses in the Ingberman poll are way ahead (even number has 3♠ raise as non-forcing). So I think we will soon decide at least for the auction D (the 3S raise), that this is not forcing --- just as Justin states --- but time will tell, the poll is still open.

 

Ben

Hi Ben,

 

assuming that 2S is non forcing, which is absolute necessary,

I believe that it wont make a real difference, to play a raise of

2S to 3S as forcing or not.

 

The hands for which this will be relevant is

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: For memory sake, I voted for non forcing. B)

[HeartA]

4♦.

[Double !]

You seem to forget that weak jump shifts are part of the system, so we can rule out quite a few hands partner can have.

Oh, great....sigh

 

Now we need a poll to determine what kinds of hands people bid wjs on. Some play it like a mini-weak 2, about 3-7 with 6-bagger, some play it as weaker and less disciplined.

 

Isn't it nice to know that there is such a thing as Standard? lolololololololololol

[Winstonm]

If he has game invitational+ values, he should rebid 3♠ over 2♥. In other words: Responder is weak (2♠ is passable as I play it) with exactly 5 spa

 

This is an interesting method, but seems geared toward weaker reverses than I would use. My bottom on a reverse is a hand valued at 17. As long as partner isn't responding 1-level with Kxxxx and out, then our combined 22-23 should be somewhat safe at the 3-level, especially with a fit.

 

I would take a jump as you showed as a mild slam try instead of a game try. To my thinking, it doesn't make any sense to take up more space than necessary if we're still probing around for the best strain. Take a hand like: AQxxx, Qx, xxxx, xx. 1C-1S-2H-? If my pard shows next a spade fit, I love my hand; however, if he bids 2N or 3C, it's not so wonderful anymore. For me the constructive aspect of using 2S as a force makes more sense than occassionally being able to play precisely 2S.

 

It gets down to whether your partnership believes in more accurate partscore bidding verese game/slam bidding IMHO.

 

WinstonM

[Walddk]

I would take a jump as you showed as a mild slam try instead of a game try.

 

WinstonM

Please read what I wrote. Since the system operates with weak jump shifts, and since responder's 2♠ rebid is passable, how else can he show an invitational+ (note the +) hand without jumping to 3♠?

 

That is not a game try, that is a game force opposite a reverse. My reverses are always sound, and they have to be if 3♠ is game forcing (roughly 8-11 with a goodish 6-card suit if only invitational).

 

Logically, 2♠ is a weak hand with exactly 5 spades, conceivably a 6-card suit, but unlikely since he didn't jump to 2♠ over 1♣.

 

1♦ - 1♠

2♣ - 2♠

 

is different in the sense that responder doesn't have to jump any more. There is no reverse, so 2♠ becomes invitational, and 3♠ will be game forcing. 2♠ on the above auction shows a game invitational hand with 6 spades. That is the whole idea of playing WJS.

 

Roland

[Winstonm]

Since the system operates with weak jump shifts, and since responder's 2♠ rebid is passable, how else can he show an invitational+ (note the +) hand without jumping to 3♠?

 

Is the trade off of being able to pass 2S when it is exactly right worth the sacrifice of a level of bidding space that a jump eats up or do you use 4th suit as an "all-purpose" bid for any and all undefined hands?

 

WinstonM

[Rebound]

RW:

 

I admit I know little about weak jump shifts. I prefer to avoid them at all costs. However, since they are part of BBO Adv., depending on style, I feel the following may apply:

 

Perhaps partner passes 1♣ holding a very weak 1-suited hand that is not good enough for a jump to 2♠. Further, ♠/♦ 2-suiters with more than a total bust would bid 2NT/2♥. With a weak ♠/♦ 2-suiter, it would be Pass or 3♣ /2♥ since Kxxxx opposite x will not play well in 2♠. So that leaves 1-suited spade hands that are too good for 2♠ directly over 1♣ IMHO such as ♠AK10xxx ♥xx ♦Jxx ♣xxx. If this reasoning is sound, it is therefore unnecessary to bid 3♠/2♥ to show a game invitational or better values. 3♠ can now indicate slam interest paving the way for serious 3NT continuation. I have long subscribed to the view that free bids show extras. I realize that is becoming more and more uncommon, but I find it works for me.

 

All that having been said, Fred has quite correctly pointed out more than once that we lesser players take lightly the wisdom of such undeniably expert and phenomenally experienced players as yourself to our detriment more often than not. So I ask your considered opinion. Am I totally out in left field?

[Winstonm]

Am I totally out in left field?

 

Ditto.

[Rebound]

You seem to forget that weak jump shifts are part of the system, so we can rule out quite a few hands partner can have.

Oh, great....sigh

 

Now we need a poll to determine what kinds of hands people bid wjs on. Some play it like a mini-weak 2, about 3-7 with 6-bagger, some play it as weaker and less disciplined.

 

Isn't it nice to know that there is such a thing as Standard? lolololololololololol

Forgive me if this was intended as a joke and I'm just being a pedantic dud, but I believe one of the stated purposes of the quizes is to reach a consensus about BBO Advanced and such treatments. Suspect this in large part the reason for selection of this particular problem.

[luke warm]

i don't think we're trying to reach a consensus on all aspects of the system... wjs is part of the system, and discussing it isn't the same as discussing serious 3nt/lttc... regarding the strength needed for the bid, after something like 1d : 2s i'd expect the 2s bidder to have <5/6 hcp and 6+ spades.. iow, a hand he can't respond with a forcing 1s