3217 progressive

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&n=sat9hkqdtcakqj876]133|100[/hv]

MP, both V

 

How do you plan to bid this hand, what do you open?

[Cyberyeti]

In the style of my partnership I open 1♣ but this could easily be a 2♣ opener for some, I will then rebid a GF unbalanced 2N over 1 of a suit.

[apollo1201]

If I start with 1C, and w/o this 2NT unbal GF rebid, I’ll have to lie about my majors lengths, by rebidding 2S over 1H, and 2H over 1S (but in that case if partner fits H, she’ll have 5+ S so we should survive). Only in the rare cases where she bids 1D, will I be confortable with the rebid (easy raise of 1NT to 3).

 

I can also be left there to play but it doesn’t look too likely. I only have 19 HCPs so someone will have enough to move.

 

Otherwise, from a purely technical POV, I’m super max for a non-GF strong 2, and a little light to open a GF (I should have 10 tricks by my own in a minor).

 

With a passed partner, at MPs, I’d go for the strong GF road. After all, 3NT looks like our most likely game.

 

However, here, partner could have some strength and we could need space to ascertain the best contract. The auction will be less condensed starting low. So I’ll risk 1C.

[shyams]

Open 2NT? At MPs one is willing to risk missing out a making 5♣ and landing in a non-making 3NT.

 

The hand is too light for 2♣ opening unless you have a partnership agreement which allows such hands. As for the rebid, I am with apollo1201 who points out the risks of bidding a major suit next.

 

2NT does look acceptable at MPs. If it were IMPs, I might open 1♣ with the hope that it does not get passed out.

[DavidKok]

I have all kinds of widgets and gadgets over 1♣, but in a natural system I think 1X-1Y-3NT should 'always' show a solid 7-card suit with too much outside values for Gambling NT, if you play that. This hand is about a king too strong for that, but it might be the least of all evils.

[nullve]

Without special agreements: 2♣, planning to rebid 2N (22-24 BAL) over a 2♦ response.

 

If I were forced open 1♣ (the systemic opening on this hand), I'd rebid

 

• 3N over a 1♦ response
  
• 2♦ over a 1M response (less scary than faking length in the unbid major)
  
• 2♠ (or maybe 3♦, autosplinter?) over a 1N response
  

[mw64ahw]

I use a Multi2♦ with an XStr+ hand 8.5/9 playing tricks and longer minor to show this.

 

Simply 2♦-2♥-3♣

 

Any response apart from 2♥ would be GF

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&n=sat9hkqdtcakqj876]133|100| JillyBean 'MP, both V. How do you plan to bid this hand, what do you open?

++++++++++++++++++++

Playing Acol, I rank

1. 2♣ = ART 8-9 playing tricks in a suit (BENJAMIN). Intending to rebid 3♣ (N/F).

2. 1♣ = NAT, intending to manufacture a 2♠ reverse or rebid 3N.

 

[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

Open 2NT? At MPs one is willing to risk missing out a making 5♣ and landing in a non-making 3NT.

 

The hand is too light for 2♣ opening unless you have a partnership agreement which allows such hands. As for the rebid, I am with apollo1201 who points out the risks of bidding a major suit next.

 

2NT does look acceptable at MPs. If it were IMPs, I might open 1♣ with the hope that it does not get passed out.

 

The problem is you can miss a cold 6♣ and play in a non making 3N, xxxx, AJ10x, xx, xxx for example

 

I also think this is worth at least 22 points if you're bidding it as balanced, maybe more.

[Douglas43]

I have all kinds of widgets and gadgets over 1♣, but in a natural system I think 1X-1Y-3NT should 'always' show a solid 7-card suit with too much outside values for Gambling NT, if you play that. This hand is about a king too strong for that, but it might be the least of all evils.

 

That would be my route too. This method works with a weak NT as long as you play 1NT rebid 15-17 and 2NT rebid 18-19.

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&n=sat9hkqdtcakqj876&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1cp1sp3cp3np?]133|200[/hv]

 

I don't have any gadgets to show this hand, I like David's 3nt (by North) showing a gambling 3nt with too many outside values.

I have no other use for 3nt here, that's a great treatment.

 

This isn't a hand I bid but one a pair who are learning 2/1 asked me to look at.

[Cyberyeti]

[hv=pc=n&n=sat9hkqdtcakqj876&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1cp1sp3cp3np?]133|200[/hv]

 

Do you respond a 4 card spade suit ahead of a potentially longer diamond suit ?

 

I hate 3♣ btw, ♠KQxx and out is enough for 5♣ to be cold

[jillybean]

Do you respond a 4 card spade suit ahead of a potentially longer diamond suit ?

 

I hate 3♣ btw, ♠KQxx and out is enough for 5♣ to be cold

 

Partner will not have longer diamonds than spades.

Yes, 3♣ is an underbid but this is a very awkward hand to bid, especially with no gadgets or experience.

[pescetom]

The problem is you can miss a cold 6♣ and play in a non making 3N, xxxx, AJ10x, xx, xxx for example

 

I also think this is worth at least 22 points if you're bidding it as balanced, maybe more.

 

I open a lot of weird stuff 2N or 2♣... 2N, but for once I am with cyberyeti here.

The clubs slam is so tantalising it would be crazy not to investigate in some way.

I would probably go the 2♣...4♣ route.

[Stephen Tu]

After 1c-1h, I'd really like to be playing an artificial 2s gadget that includes this sort of hand. Absent that I'd probably try 2s anyway (partner should be barred from raising to 4s imo, if raise 3s 3nt should show something resembling this, problem in diamonds).

 

After 1c-1s, I actually like 2H!!! I reverse on 3 cd hearts routinely holding strong hands with 3 cd spades and 6c routinely (if partner raises hearts, they have 5+ spades and you can always pull back to spades). If I can reverse on 3, why not on 2? Then if 2nt (potential weakness, 5 cd spades only unless weak with 5s+4+H), I like 3d by opener to be this sort of hand looking for stopper 4th suit.

 

To me this feels better than 3nt off the first 6 diamond tricks when 4s or 5c or 6c are easy.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner will not have longer diamonds than spades.

Yes, 3♣ is an underbid but this is a very awkward hand to bid, especially with no gadgets or experience.

 

Can he be 4-4, the point being either he has 5 spades or 3+ clubs if not, so I'd consider a diamond splinter. 4♠ can play well opposite some pretty horrible hands.

 

KQJx, xxx, xxx, xxx will play fine in 4♠or 5♣, but will play in 3♣ 3N will not be pretty either. ♠Kxxxx ♥ Jxx ♦xxx, ♣xx makes 4♠ and 5♣ playable.

 

I 'm in the fortunate position of being able to bid 1♣-1♠-2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced)-3♠(6+♣ =3♠)

[mikeh]

Late to the thread

 

This hand is far too good for a 3C rebid, which we’d happily bid with, say, Axx Kx xx AKQxxx

 

So what do we rebid? We need to force partner to bid again. We’re fortunate in that he bid 1S, so we can, with reasonable safety, reverse into 2H. Why is this safe?

 

Because, if he raises then he has at least 4 hearts and therefore at least 5 spades...so we can always, if need be, correct to spades should he try to insist on hearts.

 

We don’t have the same security if we reverse into diamonds, which is unfortunate sine the 2D reverse is generally more suspect, in terms of the suit bid, than is 2H.

 

As for the suggestions to bid 3N, that is, imo, horrific. The prototypical 3N rebid has running clubs, short spades and likely stoppers in the unbid suits. Our club suit qualifies but all else is lacking...too many spades and no semblance of a diamond stopper. 3N might well work, because they need to be able to lead or switch to diamonds successfully and they probably can’t.

 

But KQxxx xxx Axx xx is a cold slam and partner can’t bid over 3N....you might well hold x Axx Kx AKQJxxx

 

I’m not saying bidding slam, when it makes, will be easy after the fake reverse, but gambling that we can make 3N when either black suit game or slam may be superior strikes me as poor bridge.

 

Edit: I see Stephen beat me to the reverse

[jillybean]

Can he be 4-4, the point being either he has 5 spades or 3+ clubs if not, so I'd consider a diamond splinter. 4♠ can play well opposite some pretty horrible hands.

 

KQJx, xxx, xxx, xxx will play fine in 4♠or 5♣, but will play in 3♣ 3N will not be pretty either. ♠Kxxxx ♥ Jxx ♦xxx, ♣xx makes 4♠ and 5♣ playable.

 

I 'm in the fortunate position of being able to bid 1♣-1♠-2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced)-3♠(6+♣ =3♠)

Sorry, assume no 4 diamonds.

[jillybean]

 

As for the suggestions to bid 3N, that is, imo, horrific. The prototypical 3N rebid has running clubs, short spades and likely stoppers in the unbid suits. Our club suit qualifies but all else is lacking...too many spades and no semblance of a diamond stopper. 3N might well work, because they need to be able to lead or switch to diamonds successfully and they probably can’t.

We are not bidding 3nt as any kind of offer to play there, but as in David's suggestion, a gambling 3nt hand with too much in outside values.

It's forward going, slam interest in clubs.

 

I did consider a 2♥ "reverse" but "And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly". reversing into a 2 card suit is such a distortion but perhaps the only bid we have.

[apollo1201]

Edit: I see Stephen beat me to the reverse ��

1st😁😊

[LBengtsson]

not an easy hand to bid as other players have said, but I do not like fake reverses as partner is given the wrong impression of the shape of your hand. having made that statement this hand should be boss in the auction after responders 1♠ bid.

 

so you make a fake reverse (2♦/2♥), partner raises and then you bid partners first suit ♠s and partner has to assume automatically that is now what you want as the trump suit. thats garbage and you all know it! you probably should be able to cope with the rest of the auction as ♠ is higher than ♦/♥. but if rkcb is used later its possible that you may be giving inaccurate responses as neither of you are agreed what has been agreed as trump.

[mikeh]

We are not bidding 3nt as any kind of offer to play there, but as in David's suggestion, a gambling 3nt hand with too much in outside values.

It's forward going, slam interest in clubs.

 

I did consider a 2♥ "reverse" but "And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly". reversing into a 2 card suit is such a distortion but perhaps the only bid we have.

Sorry, jb, but bidding 3N is almost always an offer to play. It is not, in any way, a forcing club rebid....it is not at all forcing.

 

In my experience, playing a jump to 3N after 1m 1M, for in excess of 30 years, I’d say it’s passed at least 80% of the time.

[mikeh]

not an easy hand to bid as other players have said, but I do not like fake reverses as partner is given the wrong impression of the shape of your hand. having made that statement this hand should be boss in the auction after responders 1♠ bid.

 

so you make a fake reverse (2♦/2♥), partner raises and then you bid partners first suit ♠s and partner has to assume automatically that is now what you want as the trump suit. thats garbage and you all know it! you probably should be able to cope with the rest of the auction as ♠ is higher than ♦/♥. but if rkcb is used later its possible that you may be giving inaccurate responses as neither of you are agreed what has been agreed as trump.

If I reverse into 2H and get raised, we have at least a 5-3 spade fit and my 3S bid tells that loud and clear.

 

If partner cuebids, I can keycard and, believe me, will know what to bid. If partner ever keycards, then if he announces we have them all, once again I know what to do.

 

And both of us know spades are trump. I can’t imagine any competent player feeling any confusion at all. While having only 2 hearts is very unusual, having 3 is fairly normal with a 3=3=1=6 too strong for a 3C rebid. So when I bid 3S over the feared 3H, no player beyond a novice should be confused.

[Cyberyeti]

If I reverse into 2H and get raised, we have at least a 5-3 spade fit and my 3S bid tells that loud and clear.

 

If partner cuebids, I can keycard and, believe me, will know what to bid. If partner ever keycards, then if he announces we have them all, once again I know what to do.

 

And both of us know spades are trump. I can’t imagine any competent player feeling any confusion at all. While having only 2 hearts is very unusual, having 3 is fairly normal with a 3=3=1=6 too strong for a 3C rebid. So when I bid 3S over the feared 3H, no player beyond a novice should be confused.

 

The problem auction is that you could be facing 1♣-1♠-2♥-4♥ and now for us 4♠ is kickback (what else does partner bid with Kxxxx, Jxxxx, Qx, x).

 

We are fortunate to have the artificial 2N rebid, but without it I wonder if 3♦ is better than 2♥ ? a 4-3 spade fit might well not be too bad if partner's suit is decent and we may be able to bail back into the club slam if partner shows ♠KQ and an ace or ♠K no Q and the ♥A.

[jillybean]

Sorry, jb, but bidding 3N is almost always an offer to play. It is not, in any way, a forcing club rebid....it is not at all forcing.

 

In my experience, playing a jump to 3N after 1m 1M, for in excess of 30 years, I’d say it’s passed at least 80% of the time.

I agree, it IS an offer to play there , but would it be better to reserve the jump to 3nt for these gambling+ hands?

A hand that would bid 3nt over a l level response from partner can use a reverse to force game, it's going to be less of a distortion and it permits you to show this type of hand with the 3nt rebid.