5341. nz teams

[AL78]

Were any of the other teams playing some Acol based system? If so, I could see the auction going 1♠ - 2♥, 4♣ - 4♦ then RCKB to check on the heart honors followed by 6♥.

[Cyberyeti]

Were any of the other teams playing some Acol based system? If so, I could see the auction going 1♠ - 2♥, 4♣ - 4♦ then RCKB to check on the heart honors followed by 6♥.

 

My first thought was that not playing 2/1 makes this pretty trivial , we wouldn't have that auction but would get there easily enough.

[nullve]

[hv=pc=n&s=s65hkq732dk5cj842&n=sakq32haj4daqj6c6&d=n&v=0&b=1]133|200[/hv]

nullve(N)-nullve(S):

 

1♠(1)-1N(2)

3♣(3)-3♦(4)

3♠(5)-4♣(6)

4♦(7)-4♠(8)

5♣(9)-6♥(10)

P

 

(1) "10-21, 5+ S, unBAL"

(2) "5-12, NF"

(3) "19-21, (3)4+ D"

(4) relay

(5) 19-21, 5341

(6) puppet to 4♦

(7) forced

(8) Parity Key Card Blackwood in H

(9) odd # of key cards, no trump Q

(10) contract

 

Edit: Or if mikeh (below) is right that the North hand is really too strong for 1♠:

 

 

 

nullve(N)-nullve(S):

 

2♦(1)-2♥(2)

3♣(3)-3♦(4)

3♠(5)-4♣(6)

4♦(7)-4♠(8)

5♣(9)-6♥(10)

P

 

(1) "0-9(10), canapé preempt in S" OR "22+, 5+ S, unBAL"

(2) P/C opposite a preempt OR "INV, 3-S5+ H"

(3) "22+, (3)4+ D" (GF)

(4) relay

(5) 5341 (Responder assumes 22-24 hcp)

(6) puppet to 4♦

(7) forced

(8) Parity Key Card Blackwood in H

(9) odd # of key cards, no trump Q

(10) contract

 

 

[mikeh]

It’s unusual for me to advocate opening 2C when many are suggesting 1S...I am a conservative 2C bidder, and have opened more than a few 21 counts at the one level. However, this is an easy 2C opening for me.we have a very good hand. We have zero wastage in our short suit, a LTC of 4...and that’s being pessimistic in the heart suit, and no short term rebid problem over any response from partner.

 

Meanwhile, I respectively suggest that there is NO way partner can play us for this hand after, say, 1S 1N 3D 3H 4H

 

Why can’t we hold AQJxx Axx AQJx x? How else are we bidding this hand? Now slam requires a spade finesse and a 3-2 heart break. Plus AQJxx Ax AQJx Qx might feel endplayed in the auction over 3H.

 

Once opener bids 2C, even the poor methods in use should find south making a try. A suit oriented 2C opening usually has at most a LTC of 5 and 4 is common. South has a LTC of 7, so the total is likely at most 12, yielding an expectation of 12 winners (subtract the estimated LTC from 24 to provide an estimate of tricks)

 

LTC is hardly infallible but it can be a guide when considering what seems to be a close decision.

 

In the given auction, I think south should cue 5D over 4H, and north has an easy 6H call.

 

Back to the main problem: the inability to show a simple positive in hearts.

 

I’m a big fan of 2H negative, with 2D promising an ace or king, or better. I’m also a big fan of bidding 2D on many hands even with a ‘suit positive’ response.....but only when responder has a complex hand...say a genuine two or three suiter or a hand that intends to drive to slam.

 

My 2C structure has recently changed to a weird scheme in one partnership, but in my other we play that a 2N response shows a major suit positive, in a simple hand.

 

So we would bid 2C 2N 3C (asking responder to transfer to his major) 3D 3H

 

There we are, finding hearts at the 3-level, with responder narrowly defined. Responder has an easy 4D cue and opener bids the virtually guaranteed to be cold 6H

 

Opener could also simply bid 3H over 2N, since he knows responder holds hearts.

 

If you want something simpler, I used to play, for many years, that 2N was a heart positive. Again, this makes slam trivial.

 

Whatever you do, do not play 2C 3H as a heart positive, without very clear definition. It is ruinous in terms of preemptions your own strong auction. Traditionally it can be used to show a &6 card suit capabale of playing for one loser opposite a stiff, and should deny any side Ace or King.

[mcphee]

I think 4C must be big raise of H noww responder can show KD and then its easy key card.

[Winstonm]

It’s unusual for me to advocate opening 2C when many are suggesting 1S...I am a conservative 2C bidder, and have opened more than a few 21 counts at the one level. However, this is an easy 2C opening for me.we have a very good hand. We have zero wastage in our short suit, a LTC of 4...and that’s being pessimistic in the heart suit, and no short term rebid problem over any response from partner.

 

Meanwhile, I respectively suggest that there is NO way partner can play us for this hand after, say, 1S 1N 3D 3H 4H

 

Why can’t we hold AQJxx Axx AQJx x? How else are we bidding this hand? Now slam requires a spade finesse and a 3-2 heart break. Plus AQJxx Ax AQJx Qx might feel endplayed in the auction over 3H.

 

Once opener bids 2C, even the poor methods in use should find south making a try. A suit oriented 2C opening usually has at most a LTC of 5 and 4 is common. South has a LTC of 7, so the total is likely at most 12, yielding an expectation of 12 winners (subtract the estimated LTC from 24 to provide an estimate of tricks)

 

LTC is hardly infallible but it can be a guide when considering what seems to be a close decision.

 

In the given auction, I think south should cue 5D over 4H, and north has an easy 6H call.

 

Back to the main problem: the inability to show a simple positive in hearts.

 

I’m a big fan of 2H negative, with 2D promising an ace or king, or better. I’m also a big fan of bidding 2D on many hands even with a ‘suit positive’ response.....but only when responder has a complex hand...say a genuine two or three suiter or a hand that intends to drive to slam.

 

My 2C structure has recently changed to a weird scheme in one partnership, but in my other we play that a 2N response shows a major suit positive, in a simple hand.

 

So we would bid 2C 2N 3C (asking responder to transfer to his major) 3D 3H

 

There we are, finding hearts at the 3-level, with responder narrowly defined. Responder has an easy 4D cue and opener bids the virtually guaranteed to be cold 6H

 

Opener could also simply bid 3H over 2N, since he knows responder holds hearts.

 

If you want something simpler, I used to play, for many years, that 2N was a heart positive. Again, this makes slam trivial.

 

Whatever you do, do not play 2C 3H as a heart positive, without very clear definition. It is ruinous in terms of preemptions your own strong auction. Traditionally it can be used to show a &6 card suit capabale of playing for one loser opposite a stiff, and should deny any side Ace or King.

Mike,

If you hold the minimum jump shift you described, you play 5 hearts. not slam. Personally, I think the best advance over 4h is 5d, after which opener with no further to show bids 5h.

[jillybean]

Whatever you do, do not play 2C 3H as a heart positive, without very clear definition. It is ruinous in terms of preemptions your own strong auction. Traditionally it can be used to show a &6 card suit capabale of playing for one loser opposite a stiff, and should deny any side Ace or King.

Our 3♥ response would show a solid, 6+ card suit, values in the suit. It "never" comes up and I obviously wouldn't bid it with this hand.

 

I like your 2N Major response, what does a positive Major response look like for you?

What is 2♠/2♣ ?

[mikeh]

Our 3♥ response would show a solid, 6+ card suit, values in the suit. It "never" comes up and I obviously wouldn't bid it with this hand.

 

I like your 2N Major response, what does a positive Major response look like for you?

What is 2♠/2♣ ?

In one partnership, it is a balanced 8-11. Seems odd, but it’s a good range

 

If opener rebids 2N, and responder has a max, slam is highly probable, with at least 22 opposite 10-11. If responder has a minimum, then slam requires extras by opener or a good mesh. There’s no need for transfers over 2N (responder denies a 5 card major), so 3C is stayman, one can use 3D as a 5 card minor (3H asks), and 3H/3S as 2=3=4=4/3=2=4=4, and 3N as 3334/3343.

 

In the other partnership, we’ve switched to transfers, with 2S showing a club suit that will lay for one loser opposite a stiff, no side Ace or King, 3C is diamonds, etc. Gets the contract right-sided. Just adopted it and we’ve only played 16 boards with the method so, unsurprisingly, it hasn’t come up.

 

The 2S gadget came up last night.

[jillybean]

In one partnership, it is a balanced 8-11. Seems odd, but it’s a good range

 

If opener rebids 2N, and responder has a max, slam is highly probable, with at least 22 opposite 10-11. If responder has a minimum, then slam requires extras by opener or a good mesh. There’s no need for transfers over 2N (responder denies a 5 card major), so 3C is stayman, one can use 3D as a 5 card minor (3H asks), and 3H/3S as 2=3=4=4/3=2=4=4, and 3N as 3334/3343.

 

In the other partnership, we’ve switched to transfers, with 2S showing a club suit that will lay for one loser opposite a stiff, no side Ace or King, 3C is diamonds, etc. Gets the contract right-sided. Just adopted it and we’ve only played 16 boards with the method so, unsurprisingly, it hasn’t come up.

 

The 2S gadget came up last night.

 

Thanks. I think you missed another question hidden in there, what does a positive Major response (to 2♣) look like for you?

[mikeh]

Thanks. I think you missed another question hidden in there, what does a positive Major response (to 2♣) look like for you?

2 of top 3, 5+ suit, no side 5 card suit, no decent side 4 card suit, no more than one Ace or King on the side.

[nullve]

I am a conservative 2C bidder

 

[...]

 

I’m a big fan of 2H negative

I'm a conservative 2♣ bidder (when playing standard 2/1), too. That has the effect that almost all unbalanced hands will, for any given shape, fall within a 4-point range (e.g. 22-25 hcp). The frequency table for 5341 hands, for instance, might look something like this

 

Frequency :
  22	      48
  23	      28
  24	      17
  25	       4
  26	       2
  27	       0
  28	       1
  29	       0
  30	       0
  31	       0
  32	       0
  33	       0
Generated 4950969 hands
Produced 100 hands
Initial random seed 1620377251
Time needed    4.347 sec

, where I've used the Dealer script

 

condition hcp(north)>=22 and shape(north, 5341)
produce 100
action frequency(hcp(north),22,33)

This means that if the bidding goes e.g.

 

2♣-2♦(waiting); 2♠,

 

then 2♠ has for all practical purposes even a (much) narrower range than even the "limited" openings in Precision.

 

So basically Responder knows Opener's high-card strength (if unbalanced) and only needs to know about Opener's shape in order to judge whether to move towards slam or not. How, then, can the negative 2♥ response be useful? Well, iirc you like to be able to get out in 3♠ (maybe even 3♥) after 2♣-2♥(negative) when Opener has 5+S4+H, but other than that?

[pescetom]

In the other partnership, we’ve switched to transfers, with 2S showing a club suit that will lay for one loser opposite a stiff, no side Ace or King, 3C is diamonds, etc. Gets the contract right-sided. Just adopted it and we’ve only played 16 boards with the method so, unsurprisingly, it hasn’t come up.

 

I have long been thinking of playing transfers here too. Say that a simple major positive is shown at 2-level (either flip-flop or through 2N as you discussed), then do you use 3♦/3♥ as transfers to longer/complex major hands? If so, how are these hands defined?

[mikeh]

I have long been thinking of playing transfers here too. Say that a simple major positive is shown at 2-level (either flip-flop or through 2N as you discussed), then do you use 3♦/3♥ as transfers to longer/complex major hands? If so, how are these hands defined?

Complex hands are either multi-suited (2 or 3) or have values outside that main suit sufficient to make slam at least probable. Our thinking is that positive responses tend to consume bidding space, making it difficult to explore multiple options if opener has to start describing his hand at the 3-level. Yes, that can happen anyway, if opener has a minor, but we tend not to open 2C with a minor suit hand unless it’s very strong. While 1m is not forcing, we don’t pass it very often.

 

So 3D by responder is a simple hand with a good heart suit, and at most one useful card outside.

[TylerE]

 

So basically Responder knows Opener's high-card strength (if unbalanced) and only needs to know about Opener's shape in order to judge whether to move towards slam or not. H

 

Raw HCP is frankly a meaningless measure on these types of auctions. A king can easily be worth well more than all 4 jacks.

[mcphee]

For me after 3!H having opened 2C it must be a 4C cue bid and slam is easy. I would open 1S and see little difficulty in finding 6H.