5341. nz teams

[jillybean]

Our first team game of the local (NZ) team championships was a humbling experience, here's just one board.

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakq32haj4daqj6c6&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2cp2d(waiting%20A%2FK%2B)p2sp3hp?]133|200[/hv]

 

Did you open 2♣, what now?

[hrothgar]

Our first team game of the local (NZ) team championships was a humbling experience, here's just one board.

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakq32haj4daqj6c6&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2cp2d(waiting%20A%2FK%2B)p2sp3hp?]133|200[/hv]

 

Did you open 2♣, what now?

 

I would open 1♠

 

As is, I rebid 4♥

[jillybean]

I would open 1♠

 

As is, I rebid 4♥

 

If you open 1♠, partner bids 1nt* forcing.

[hrothgar]

If you open 1♠, partner bids 1nt* forcing.

 

3♦

[Winstonm]

I, too, would open 1S and I think the auction after 1N would be:

 

1S-1NT

3D-3H

4H-?

 

Don't know what happens next but the big hand is pretty well described.

[Cyberyeti]

What would be required for partner to show hearts directly over 2♣ and how would they do it ?

 

I suspect 4♥ is right.

 

I would open 1♠, would worry about just bidding 4♥ over 3♥ if the auction went 1♠-1N-3♦-3♥ as this could be a little weaker than this. Would also want to know what 1♠-3♥ would have been. 4♣ if the agreement is that it's a stronger 4♥ rather than a void would make sense.

[pescetom]

I too would have opened 1♠.

But at this point I bid a natural 4♦ and wait for developments, which do not exclude a natural 4NT.

[mycroft]

I don't mind 2♣ as long as 4♦ isn't diamonds (whether it's support for hearts or a self-sufficient spade suit they'll find out eventually). You make 6 on the ♣A and either QTxxx and the ♦K, or one-of-two finesses with KTxxx and no diamond K. Hard to convince partner that two control cards is a good shot at slam, when they've shown one, but 4♦ (begging partner for the ♣A) might do it.

 

My biases against opening 2♣ with two-suiters, especially 5M4m, are well known here. Being able to bid 4♦ and not have it taken as "pointy two-suiter, we've bypassed our best contract already" is a big reason why.

 

If you open 1♠-1NTF; 3♦-3♥, same thing, you need to find the same cards. Does partner know that when you shape out with 4♥?

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=s65hkq732dk5cj842&w=st98h65dt9843ca93&n=sakq32haj4daqj6c6&e=sj74ht98d72ckqt75&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp1np3dp3hp4hp?]399|300[/hv]

 

Here's the full hand, I did open 1♠, but we didn't find the slam. 8/12 teams did.

[jillybean]

What would be required for partner to show hearts directly over 2♣ and how would they do it ?

Over 2♣ partner would bid 3♥. For us this would set trump and ask partner to cue bid.

[hrothgar]

[hv=pc=n&s=s65hkq732dk5cj842&w=st98h65dt9843ca93&n=sakq32haj4daqj6c6&e=sj74ht98d72ckqt75&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp1np3dp3hp4hp?]399|300[/hv]

 

Here's the full hand, I did open 1♠, but we didn't find the slam. 8/12 teams did.

 

Once partner has bid 4♥, you're hand is looking really good.

 

You have four low clubs opposite partner's known shortage, a fitting honor in Diamonds, your hearts are quite good, and the doubleton spade is actually pretty good (all things considered)

[Cyberyeti]

Once partner has bid 4♥, you're hand is looking really good.

 

You have four low clubs opposite partner's known shortage, a fitting honor in Diamonds, your hearts are quite good, and the doubleton spade is actually pretty good (all things considered)

 

Looks even better if instead of 4♥ the auction goes 4♣-4♦

[mycroft]

And I get a bit of a win here over the common world. Not saying "I'm right, they're wrong"; in fact, I could go either way.

 

But if I do open 2♣ on this hand, I think partner would consider this enough (bog minimum, but enough) for 2♥ natural positive. "5 cards to two/top 3, and something else useful". 2♣-2♥; 3♥ and we should now have enough room to find the slam trivially. Not sure, if I have to bid 2NT to say this (common in my area where 2♥ is immediate double negative), if I would (in this case, it doesn't matter, because it's 2♣-2NT!; 3♥ and we're in the same place).

 

But your compatriots playing control responses to 2♣, too, are happy (even if they've wrongsided the spade suit if you play there).

 

I'm liking Yeti's "4♣ showing a better than minimum 4♥ raise" more and more; almost certain my partners wouldn't get it (they'd treat it as a heart raise, but a cue. Maybe that's all I need, if I get 4♦ in response. Are we 100% sure we're on the same page about:[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp1n(Forcing)p3dp3hp4cp4dp4n]133|100|? Or is this a Kickback 4♠ auction (at least that's ambiguous as to suit; whether it's passed because partner's confused is Yet Another Kickback Question)[/hv]

[johnu]

Over 2♣ partner would bid 3♥. For us this would set trump and ask partner to cue bid.

 

From the description of 2♦, it looks like you are playing a 2♥ response as a double negative. If so, how does responder show just a good heart suit?

[jillybean]

From the description of 2♦, it looks like you are playing a 2♥ response as a double negative. If so, how does responder show just a good heart suit?

Yes, 2♥ is negative. Partner can't show just good hearts except via 2♣ 2♦ 2x 2/3♥.

This may be a flaw in our system but, is anything perfect? I think I first learned over 2♣ to bid 2♦ with A or K, 2♥ bust, 2/3M "positive". Now we are much more likely to use 2♦ waiting and allow the strong hand to describe their hand.

[mycroft]

Playing that system, I would definitely look into "2NT=heart positive".

 

You don't want responder bidding NT and wrong-siding the NT contract, so having it be "the hand you can't show any more", that is likely to play in that suit works well. If you end up in 6NT from the wrong side, it shouldn't be that big a deal. And it's certainly better than needing to bid 3♥ - and you won't need to have quite so powerful a suit to worry about taking up all that room to show it.

 

As you know I play 2♦ semi-automatic, cheapest 3 2nd negative (with Kokish Relay with one partner) by preference; but the preference is really really small. I could very easily be convinced into 2♥ immediate double negative - as long as I don't lose my heart positive for the one hand a year I need it!

[Winstonm]

Personally, I think north should be gently told that you can subtract a jack and a king from that hand and we are still in a game forcing auction - with a good trump suit and a fitting king as extra values and with almost zero club wastage it is terribly shy to let the bidding die at 4h.

[akwoo]

Lacking good gadgets, I think 5H is better than 4H after 1S-1N-3D-3H.

 

ETA: How many of the other pairs were playing strong club? I think just about any system after a positive response to a strong club finds the slam trivially.

[jillybean]

Lacking good gadgets, I think 5H is better than 4H after 1S-1N-3D-3H.

 

ETA: How many of the other pairs were playing strong club? I think just about any system after a positive response to a strong club finds the slam trivially.

Our opponents, who found the slam were playing strong club. I don't know about the other teams but I would imagine some/many would be playing it, I'm not sure if it would be 8/12 teams though.

 

5♥ tells partner, I have this sort of hand and does it ask partner to cue if more than a minimum?

[jillybean]

Personally, I think north should be gently told that you can subtract a jack and a king from that hand and we are still in a game forcing auction - with a good trump suit and a fitting king as extra values and with almost zero club wastage it is terribly shy to let the bidding die at 4h.

How does North go on after 3♥? or do you mean South?

[Winstonm]

How does North go on after 3♥? or do you mean South?

My error - I mean south, the weaker hand. IMO the south hand was not evaluated properly in light of the bidding or is used to playing with a notorious over bidder who frequently shades jump shift strength. That said I favor playing a strong club because of these difficulties in a more standard system

[johnu]

Lacking good gadgets, I think 5H is better than 4H after 1S-1N-3D-3H.

 

ETA: How many of the other pairs were playing strong club? I think just about any system after a positive response to a strong club finds the slam trivially.

 

Responder may have 5 small hearts and no fit for spades or diamonds. I wouldn't want to bypass 4♥ unless partner can cooperate with a slam try.

[akwoo]

Our opponents, who found the slam were playing strong club. I don't know about the other teams but I would imagine some/many would be playing it, I'm not sure if it would be 8/12 teams though.

 

5♥ tells partner, I have this sort of hand and does it ask partner to cue if more than a minimum?

 

I think 5H says "We have reasonable play at slam if you have the right minimum, I can't find out that information using any of the slam seeking gadgets we play, and what looks like the right minimum from the prior bidding and the fact that I'm not using any other convention is in fact the right minimum."

 

It's a bit of an overbid here because partner might bid 6H on just both red kings, but even that slam is still somewhere close to 50% (and, if you're outclassed in a short team match and this is in fact a 40% slam, it's probably your best chance to steal the match with a bit of luck).

 

Partner shouldn't bother cue-bidding unless they can visualize a hand you could have where you didn't open 2C but 7H makes, so their usual choices are pass and 6H.

[mw64ahw]

If you consider the Modified Loosing Trick Count (MLT) North will have a minimum of 4.5 opening 2♣; in this case North has less than 4.

 

Once South has bid 3♥ and had support from North it becomes clear from South's MLT of 8.5 that a slam is on. i.e. 19-4-8.5 = 6.5 level. Slam exploration is then de rigour for South

 

Going via 1♠ would also work for me

1♠-1NT

2NT (Str+, 4+♦/balanced with ♦ doubleton)-3♣ (Avg+ Shape?)

3♥ (5341)-4♥ (5+♥)

MLT calculation 19-3.75-9.5=5.75 level. With 3 keycards and controls in all suits the 5 level should be safe so I start a slam exploration sequence

[Cyberyeti]

 

I'm liking Yeti's "4♣ showing a better than minimum 4♥ raise" more and more; almost certain my partners wouldn't get it (they'd treat it as a heart raise, but a cue. Maybe that's all I need, if I get 4♦ in response.

 

Well it is a cue of sorts given that you've shown 12 cards in the other suits, the question is whether it's categorically a void or just a better hand with a singleton