Grand or not?

[shyams]

This is a hand from yesterday's Zenith Daylong. Matchpoints. North is a robot.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa874hak754dajcj6&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=p1np2cp2hp3s(GF%20!H%20raise%3B%20shows%2015%2B%20total%20pts%20)p4c(cue%20bid%20%5Busually%20!CA%5D)p4n(RKCB%20%5B!H%5D)p5d(1%20or%204%20key%20cards)p5s(Query%20for%20!HQ)p6d(Yes%20!HQ%20%26%20!DK%20%5Bdenies%20!CK%3F%5D)p?]200|300[/hv]

 

What do you bid now?

 

I haven't offered a choice of 6♠ because I'm guessing North will immediately bid 6NT in response.

[DavidKok]

You jumped to 3♠, and on the next bid consumed another level of bidding space. And now, at the 6 level, you don't have sufficient information to make an informed call. What is your source of tricks?

 

On the auction so far it is very possible you are missing both black kings, or that 7♥ on a club lead requires a correct decision in spades. Parter could even have a disaster hand like ♠Jxxx, ♥QJTx, ♦KQ, ♣AQx, when even 6♥ is not safe. Honestly I think a grand will make a good amount of the time, but you no longer have the option of finding out.

[helene_t]

So we know that p has ♣A and ♦K and ♥Q, that's 9 points. ♠KQJ,♥J,♦Q and ♣Q are unaccounted for, that's 11 points of which partner must 6-8 points. So it is possible that p has ♠KQ and ♦Q but that's too much luck to ask for.

 

It may have ♠KQJ in which case it probably has no ♦Q, so we need a diamond on a finesse for 7♥, but 6NT is cold.

 

It may have ♠QJ in which case it also needs a finesse, but again, 6NT has good chances.

 

I think I try 6NT at MPs.

[Cyberyeti]

So we know that p has ♣A and ♦K and ♥Q, that's 9 points. ♠KQJ,♥J,♦Q and ♣Q are unaccounted for, that's 11 points of which partner must 6-8 points. So it is possible that p has ♠KQ and ♦Q but that's too much luck to ask for.

 

It may have ♠KQJ in which case it probably has no ♦Q, so we need a diamond on a finesse for 7♥, but 6NT is cold.

 

It may have ♠QJ in which case it also needs a finesse, but again, 6NT has good chances.

 

I think I try 6NT at MPs.

 

There are also hands where 6N and 7♠ make but 7♥ needs a finesse KQJx, QJ10x, Kxx, Ax for example, and 6♥ doesn't make the overtrick because you risk going down on a club lead if you take the diamond finesse.

 

This is a horrible auction, I don't know why you can't transfer to hearts then bid spades in the robot system.

[LBengtsson]

9 card ♥ fit do not make 13 tricks guarantee. all pairs will find ♥ fit. so bid 6♥ sensible or 6NT matchpoint bid. auction help the opponents know your hands and find lead. I like good, construct auctions but 1NT - 6NT auction give nothing to opps who will probably lead ♥/♠. 6nt or 6Nt+1 will be good score.

[shyams]

This is a horrible auction, I don't know why you can't transfer to hearts then bid spades in the robot system.

If I recall, a transfer to hearts followed by 2♠ shows a 5-5 hand in the GIB system.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa874hak754dajcj6&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=p1np2cp2hp3s(GF%20!H%20raise%3B%20shows%2015%2B%20total%20pts%20)p4c(cue%20bid%20%5Busually%20!CA%5D)p4n(RKCB%20%5B!H%5D)p5d(1%20or%204%20key%20cards)p5s(Query%20for%20!HQ)p6d(Yes%20!HQ%20%26%20!DK%20%5Bdenies%20!CK%3F%5D)p?]200|300|

Shyams 'This is a hand from yesterday's Zenith Daylong. Matchpoints. North is a robot. What do you bid now? I haven't offered a choice of 6♠ because I'm guessing North will immediately bid 6NT in response.

+++++++++++++++++

I played in the Zenith MPs, yesterday, but missed this board.

Agree with Helene_T and rank

1. 6N We have lots of power and 6N might withstand bad breaks.

2. 6♥ Close decision.

3. 7♥ Might be able to ruff something for a 13th trick.

4. 7NT

[/hv]

[smerriman]

Honestly I think a grand will make a good amount of the time, but you no longer have the option of finding out.

This is a horrible auction, I don't know why you can't transfer to hearts then bid spades in the robot system.

Clearly neither of you have ever played with the robots :) This is easily the best auction you'll get with their system.

[helene_t]

If I recall, a transfer to hearts followed by 2♠ shows a 5-5 hand in the GIB system.

And it's non-forcing.

[pilowsky]

No doubt about it. 4♣ Gerber!

[shyams]

North held:

[hv=pc=n&n=skqj6hqt98dkq2ca5]133|100[/hv]

 

There are 13 trick available in ♥, ♠ or NT. Hearts broke 3-1, spades broke 3-2.

 

At the table, I took a "state-of-the-match" gamble and bid 7♥ which scored 96% and was a massive boost to my score.

 

I was thinking along the lines described by Helene and had decided to bid 6NT. Then I thought that most opponents will be in 6NT as well and I felt I needed a good board. So at the very last second, I just took the plunge and bid the grand slam.

 

In reality, most people were in 6♥ which scores them 32% MPs. Consequently bidding 6NT would have scored enough (74%) without the downside risk of scoring a zero.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa874hak754dajcj6&n=skqj6hqt98dkq2ca5]200|300| Shyams 'There are 13 trick available in ♥, ♠ or NT. Hearts broke 3-1, spades broke 3-2. At the table, I took a "state-of-the-match" gamble and bid 7♥ which scored 96% and was a massive boost to my score. I was thinking along the lines described by Helene and had decided to bid 6NT. Then I thought that most opponents will be in 6NT as well and I felt I needed a good board. So at the very last second, I just took the plunge and bid the grand slam. In reality, most people were in 6♥ which scores them 32% MPs. Consequently bidding 6NT would have scored enough (74%) without the downside risk of scoring a zero.

++++++++++++++++++

Shyam's brave tactical decision was rewarded :)

Luckily, Gib North held a robust 17 HCP :)

(although he had admitted to only15+ total points)

Even so, 6♥/NT is enough if North held

♠KQJx ♥Qxxx ♦KQ ♣A52

Sometimes (as in my construction), the 4-4 fit (♠) plays a trick better. [/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

My first look at the N hand said "this is too good for 1N" although K&R disagrees, the touching honours and intermediates look good, 10xxx, x, Axxxx, xxx seems to offer good play for game. I think you got a little lucky, if N has the same hand without ♦Q 7♠ just needs 3-2 spades, 7♥ needs the diamond finesse.

 

(playing 4M) we start 1♥-2N-3♠ which is interesting as while we do bid 3 card decent holdings occasionally, 3♠ will be 4 once it becomes known partner has honours in both clubs and diamonds, he would bid Hxx in a minor before HHx in spades over 2N, so he has 4 spades unless he has 6 hearts. Not sure where the auction goes from there, and whether S can work out N isn't 4522 and N can work out S isn't 44(32).

[AL78]

Oh the 3♠ was natural? I thought it was a cue bid setting hearts as trumps. Normally I'd expect a transfer to hearts followed by 2♠ to show 5-4 or 5-5 depending on whether or not you go through Stayman then jump in the 5 card major to show 5-4 game forcing if opener responds 2♦.

 

On the actual hand opener held, why did they not superaccept the transfer? I would bid 2♠ over 2♦ South can put partner with a maximum with 4 card support and a feature in spades. That will make a grand better odds by the time you get to cue bidding and RCKB. Also, after going through RCKB then bidding the next non trump suit (5♠) to ask for the trump queen, isn't the response 5NT with two kings? Bidding 6♦ sounds like they only have one king.

[shyams]

Oh the 3♠ was natural? I thought it was a cue bid setting hearts as trumps.

No, it wasn't natural.

 

It's an artificial bid that does indeed set hearts as trumps and shows slam interest. However, it does not specifically show a top spade (i.e. not a cue in the traditional sense)

 

Added:

On the actual hand opener held, why did they not superaccept the transfer? I would bid 2♠ over 2♦ South can put partner with a maximum with 4 card support...

This is a valid point and I don't know why North did not. The super-accept is part of the GIB system and this hand ticks all the boxes for a super-accept.

Edited January 29, 2021 by shyams

[smerriman]

On the actual hand opener held, why did they not superaccept the transfer? I would bid 2♠ over 2♦ South can put partner with a maximum with 4 card support and a feature in spades. That will make a grand better odds by the time you get to cue bidding and RCKB. Also, after going through RCKB then bidding the next non trump suit (5♠) to ask for the trump queen, isn't the response 5NT with two kings? Bidding 6♦ sounds like they only have one king.

Transfer? There was no transfer; this was Stayman.

 

A 5N response to the queen ask shows the queen without any kings.

[shyams]

Transfer? There was no transfer; this was Stayman.

Oops, I responded to the previous point without this registering in my head! :lol:

[Winstonm]

I'm going to bid 6H and hope I make it.

 

Partner's hand is as likely to be. KQx, xxxx, KQ, AQxx as a hand that makes slam or grand slam gin. I understand the 3S bid is necessary, but I also think jumping to 4NT is wrong when you won't know what to do after you hear the answer(s).

 

PS: It's a good idea for a partnership to determine if responder's slam tries require a cue bid from opener or if the cue bid shows a hand that is cooperatively slammish.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Winstonm

[akwoo]

I agree that 6N has good chances, but 6H can be better than 6N in two ways - either 6N doesn't make, or 6H makes an overtrick when 6N doesn't (or you could be gifted the overtrick). I think the combination of these two make 6H better than 6N.

[smerriman]

I agree that 6N has good chances, but 6H can be better than 6N in two ways - either 6N doesn't make, or 6H makes an overtrick when 6N doesn't (or you could be gifted the overtrick). I think the combination of these two make 6H better than 6N.

Those are definitely two ways 6H can be better than 6N, but even combined surely there are going to be more occasions when you take the same number of tricks in both strains, where 6H is worse.

 

A super basic double dummy analysis of 500 hands (North any 5332, 4332, 4432 with 15-17, 4+♥, Q♥, A♣, K♦, no K♣) gives 6N way on top compared to 6H (16 deals both slams down, 6H scores better on 127 occasions, 6N scores better on 357 occasions).

 

It also has 7H making 55% of the time, for what it's worth.

 

As always, make what you will of double dummy analysis.

[cherdano]

So we know that p has ♣A and ♦K and ♥Q, that's 9 points. ♠KQJ,♥J,♦Q and ♣Q are unaccounted for, that's 11 points of which partner must 6-8 points. So it is possible that p has ♠KQ and ♦Q but that's too much luck to ask for.

 

It may have ♠KQJ in which case it probably has no ♦Q, so we need a diamond on a finesse for 7♥, but 6NT is cold.

 

It may have ♠QJ in which case it also needs a finesse, but again, 6NT has good chances.

 

I think I try 6NT at MPs.

Partner has more than 6 hcp because he cuebid 4♣.

I think 7♥ might be right in a strong field (MP challenge against smerriman) and 6N in a random daylong. In a Robot 55% tourney you won't find many in 6♥ I think (but there you don't want zeros).

[Cyberyeti]

It's interesting how different systems fare, was looking at very old style asking bid precision and 1♣-1♥ and the next 2 exchanges reveal 7 controls and 5 hearts to 2 of the top 3 which is all you need to know for 7N.

[Lovera]

My first look at the N hand said "this is too good for 1N" although K&R disagrees, the touching honours and intermediates look good, 10xxx, x, Axxxx, xxx seems to offer good play for game. I think you got a little lucky, if N has the same hand without ♦Q 7♠ just needs 3-2 spades, 7♥ needs the diamond finesse.

 

(playing 4M) we start 1♥-2N-3♠ which is interesting as while we do bid 3 card decent holdings occasionally, 3♠ will be 4 once it becomes known partner has honours in both clubs and diamonds, he would bid Hxx in a minor before HHx in spades over 2N, so he has 4 spades unless he has 6 hearts. Not sure where the auction goes from there, and whether S can work out N isn't 4522 and N can work out S isn't 44(32).

 

Perhaps 3♥ initally can clear the "good" hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Perhaps 3♥ initally can clear the "good" hand.(Lovera)

 

I don't know what you mean by initially, our 2N is not GF, 3♥ is NF over it

[smerriman]

Partner has more than 6 hcp because he cuebid 4♣.

I was thinking the same, since GIB so often frustratingly avoids cuebidding with minimums. But it appears in this sequence, even basic GIB will cuebid 4♣ if you take away a queen to leave it with just 15 HCP.