2 spade response to 1NT opening

[dickiegera]

♠[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np2s]133|100[/hv]

 

At one time I use to play "RANGE" where 2♠ asked if NT was at the top of the 15-17 range for 1NT opener.

2Nt said no, 3♣ yes. 2 bidder could go from there.

 

If 2♠ bidder just wished to play club he would pass 3♣ bid or correct 2NT to 3♣

 

My question

 

How would a strong hand with ♣ bid this?

 

Also we then used 2NT over 1NT to show 5-5 minors weak or ♦

 

I forget how one would show if♦ were strong or weak [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np2n]133|100[/hv]

 

Any help would be GREAT

[Stephen Tu]

How would a strong hand with ♣ bid this?

[Edited after smerriman pointed out my brain short circuit]

Strong hands with clubs would just bid something > 3♣. Meanings are dependent on rest of structure, but in the U.S. it's common for 3 of other suits to show shortness. 3nt would be a nf slam invite with a good club suit over 2nt, but just to play over 3c (then need 4nt to invite). 4c would be forcing setting clubs, some might also use it as minorwood, or optional RKC, up to partnership preferences. 4D could be kickback, higher bids exclusion.Structure depends on how good hands with 4 cd major and long clubs are typically bid. Some countries I gather they transfer to clubs then bid the major, which would then make showing shortness harder. In the U.S. typically these hands are shown by stayman followed by clubs if the major fit isn't found immediately, so 1nt-2s-?-3M! shows shortness rather than suit.

 

To show strong diamonds, start 2nt, then same principles (pass or bid 3d with weak, bid > 3d with strong). Maybe some difference of opinion of whether 1nt-2nt!-3d-3nt! should be similar meaning as over clubs (nf slam try), or specifically be a club splinter (but willing to play 3nt opposite significant wastage/good stoppers), weaker than 4c.

[smerriman]

3nt would be a nf slam invite with a good club suit.

I would take 1NT - 2♠ - 2NT - 3NT to be a signoff, so that you can play in 3NT when others are in 4NT after a quantitative invite. (But nf slam invite over a 3♣ response makes sense).

[Stephen Tu]

I would take 1NT - 2♠ - 2NT - 3NT to be a signoff, so that you can play in 3NT when others are in 4NT after a quantitative invite. (But nf slam invite over a 3♣ response makes sense).

 

Oops, I wasn't thinking straight and forgot 2S was including the NT invite hands.

 

But you got this backwards.1nt-2s-3c-3nt is to play since this is basically is 1nt-2nt-3nt playing no conventions (opener accepted showing max, responder has the natural 1nt-2nt bid).

 

1nt-2s-2nt-3nt is the slam invite.

[smerriman]

Oops, yes, I should have said I would take *both* to be signoffs, with the former being a (rejected) quantitative invite (and not showing clubs).

[Zelandakh]

I personally like to play second round transfers after 2♠:-

 

1NT - 2♠

--

2NT = min

... - 3♣ = weak, nat

... - 3♦ = 4♥5+♣ SI

... - 3♥ = 4♠5+♣ SI

... - 3♠ = 5+♣5+♦ SI

... - 3NT = to play (typically a natural 4NT response)

3♣ = max

... - 3♦ = 4♥5+♣ SI

... - 3♥ = 4♠5+♣ SI

... - 3♠ = 5+♣5+♦ SI

... - 3NT = to play (typically a natural 2NT response)

--

 

A more popular scheme is for second round calls to show shortages in a one-suited slam hand:-

 

1NT - 2♠

--

2NT = min

... - 3♣ = weak, nat

... - 3♦ = 6+♣, 0-1♦ SI

... - 3♥ = 6+♣, 0-1♥ SI

... - 3♠ = 6+♣, 0-1♠ SI

... - 3NT = to play (typically a natural 4NT response)

3♣ = max

... - 3♦ = 6+♣, 0-1♦ SI

... - 3♥ = 6+♣, 0-1♥ SI

... - 3♠ = 6+♣, 0-1♠ SI

... - 3NT = to play (typically a natural 2NT response)

--

 

If you play 2NT as a diamond transfer, then 3M rebids will typically either show 4 cards in the bid major and longer diamonds or shortage and a one-suiter:-

 

1NT - 2NT

--

3♣ = ♣ > ♦

... - 3♦ = weak, nat

... - 3♥ = 4♥5+♦ SI

... - 3♠ = 4♠5+♦ SI

3♦ = ♦ > ♣

... - 3♥ = 6+♦, 0-1♥ SI

... - 3♠ = 6+♦, 0-1♠ SI

--

 

1NT - 2NT

--

3♣ = ♣ > ♦

... - 3♦ = weak, nat

... - 3♥ = 6+♦, 0-1♥ SI

... - 3♠ = 6+♦, 0-1♠ SI

... - 3NT = 6+♦, 0-1♣ slam try

... - 4♣ = 6+♦, 0-1♣ strong SI

3♦ = ♦ > ♣

... - 3♥ = 6+♦, 0-1♥ SI

... - 3♠ = 6+♦, 0-1♠ SI

... - 3NT = 6+♦, 0-1♣ slam try

... - 4♣ = 6+♦, 0-1♣ strong SI

--

 

How you play these sequences in the end depends on the rest of your structure, in particular where you decide to place your one-suited slam hands. There is generally a great deal of leeway in designing NT structures and these auctions are no exception to that.

[apollo1201]

We are considering adopting a 3C puppet with my partner as we realized we opened more and more hands with a 5-cd M with our strong 1NT. No harm so far, since we had a 5-4 fit we found back (!) but could have been less successful if we both had the same doubleton 5332 facing 3442 for instance.

 

2C would then be used only when we have inv values with 1 or 2 4-cd M, or GF and both M, or M and a longer minor worth mentioning if alternative contracts might exist (5m, 6 something) and we need space after the Stayman to discover.

 

So we need to ask min or max and 2S has to be it along with C hands. We plan to keep our current structure to show shortness:

- 3 oM for M shortness (we’ve played 4oM in 4-3 once and could even be 5-3 the good days if the occasion arises again), on these auctions we could be (13)45

- 3NT short D, no slam

- 4C slam inv no shortness - facultative BW for opener, with 4NT no go

- 4D slam inv with short D - same structure

 

55 minors GF are shown with 3D. The tweak with the 3C answer is that over it, we’ll need 3D to be either 55m or D shortness, since 3NT would be natural over 3C, 8-9 bal. I understand the desire to stop lower with a quant slam invite but I am not sure it is that useful, I’ve never went down so far, fwiw, in rejected invites.

 

We have the same structure over D: 3oM, 3NT, 4m and 4om.

 

That was my contribution to the OP 😃but I’d like to share further interrogations I have😅, from past hands I remember playing. Applogies Dickie for hijacking the thread.

 

Using 2NT for weak 55m (or D) is interesting.

 

I remember having that hand once, hesitating between passing or tossing which m to play, then deciding I would pass and balance if opps dont sell out at 1NT. It went 2S, pass, pass, 2NT that partner took as natural (7 pts and a stopper, probably what it should show), but I was rescued with a 3M balance by RHO, a 3NT balance by p (!!!), Xed, 4C (then she alerted and said oh well maybe he has minors🤣🤣), that I was allowed to play for -1, a good-ish save). Having the 2NT tool would probably have won the board quicker.

 

Nevertheless, the downside of these 2-way minor transfers is that you lose the minor super’accept (Hxx and other suits reasonably stopped with rather quick tricks so that partner with HHxxxx can try 3NT). And that proved useful...3 times in my bridge career.

 

Therefore I’m not sure what is best at the end.

 

Of course one can’t have it all, and it is probably a matter of frequency, and my experiences are not mathematical stats. What do you think?

 

Also, what is more useful for 3DHS with this « new » structure to answer « modern » NT openings? I know some play super strong M hands, either direct or with a transfer, some play some kind of M splinter with (13)(45) hands...

[Zelandakh]

We are considering adopting a 3C puppet with my partner as we realized we opened more and more hands with a 5-cd M with our strong 1NT.

You might also look up the 2♣ Puppet structure that I have posted here a few times.

[JLilly]

1NT - 2NT

--

3♣ = ♣ > ♦

... - 3♦ = weak, nat

... - 3♥ = 6+♦, 0-1♥ SI

... - 3♠ = 6+♦, 0-1♠ SI

... - 3NT = 6+♦, 0-1♣ slam try

... - 4♣ = 6+♦, 0-1♣ strong SI

3♦ = ♦ > ♣

... - 3♥ = 6+♦, 0-1♥ SI

... - 3♠ = 6+♦, 0-1♠ SI

... - 3NT = 6+♦, 0-1♣ slam try

... - 4♣ = 6+♦, 0-1♣ strong SI

--

 

How you play these sequences in the end depends on the rest of your structure,. . .

 

Most people in my area (Northern California) who play four-way transfers, with or without 2♠ as "range ask or clubs", use acceptance of the 2NT->3♦ transfer to show Hxx (H=A,K,Q) or better. This way responder can make a light invitation to 3NT with HHxxxx and little else, which opener accepts with a diamond holding that will let responder's diamonds run for six tricks. So after 1NT-2NT; 3♦, 3NT = "I have HHxxxx, so we've got 3NT", and 4♣ is the sole slam invitation with club shortness.

[Zelandakh]

Most people in my area (Northern California) who play four-way transfers, with or without 2♠ as "range ask or clubs", use acceptance of the 2NT->3♦ transfer to show Hxx (H=A,K,Q) or better. This way responder can make a light invitation to 3NT with HHxxxx and little else, which opener accepts with a diamond holding that will let responder's diamonds run for six tricks. So after 1NT-2NT; 3♦, 3NT = "I have HHxxxx, so we've got 3NT", and 4♣ is the sole slam invitation with club shortness.

You can certainly do this if you are prepared to give up the "both minors, weak" hand from the 2NT response but I was assuming it was included there. The old (before 3C Puppet took hold) solution to this was to use a direct 3m response to show the one-suited invite hand and then have Opener make the decision on acceptance or not. In my Puppet scheme, I actually forego this specific hand type and in general it does seem to have gone out of fashion as you cannot show absolutely everything and there is good reason to regard this as one of the less important ones.

[awm]

You can certainly do this if you are prepared to give up the "both minors, weak" hand from the 2NT response but I was assuming it was included there. The old (before 3C Puppet took hold) solution to this was to use a direct 3m response to show the one-suited invite hand and then have Opener make the decision on acceptance or not. In my Puppet scheme, I actually forego this specific hand type and in general it does seem to have gone out of fashion as you cannot show absolutely everything and there is good reason to regard this as one of the less important ones.

 

You can still include both minors and weak. If opener bids 3♦ he has at least Hxx and you will be fine playing there. The only risk is that opener has worse than ♦Hxx and yet diamonds are still a better fit than clubs (basically 3+ diamonds with no honor and doubleton clubs.) This is possible but relatively rare, and it seems having the diamond invite (and also some help on diamond slam tries) is worth occasionally playing the wrong minor when responder has a weak 5-5.