Strong Hand Over Preempt

[pbleighton]

RHO preempts (say 3C) in the first seat. Your hand is too good for 3S. Which hands do you bid 4S with, and which do you double and then bid spades? 4S directly sets trump, so you (presumably) wouldn't do it with 5, but what other considerations are there? Is there any difference in strength, either minimum or maximum?

 

Peter

[Double !]

rule of thumb?

 

Double only when you are prepared for anything partner might bid?

[Guest Jlall]

no difference in strength to me. X then spades is just more flexible than 4S.

[Fluffy]

3♣-3♠ is almost forcing to me.

[Free]

3♣-3♠ is almost forcing to me.

Indeed, so no real need to jump or anything...

[Guest Jlall]

huh? Wouldn't people overcall 3S with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x pretty routinely? "almost forcing" doesn't exist, its like kind of pregnant. If you have a hand too good to be passed in 3S obviously you can't bid 3S, you need to jump (or X then bid spades, hence the thread).

[PriorKnowledge]

Double then spades over a preempt shows a 5-card suit. It generally does not show extra strength like a dbl then bid does over a 1-of-a-suit opening.

3C X p 3H

p 3S = Something like KJxxx AQx AQxx x

 

3C 4S = Too strong for a 3S overcall

[Double !]

Could it not also show a GOSH that is actually too good for a 4S bid/ direct overcall, a hand that is able to play at 5-level should partner make an inconvenient response to double?

I do not agree that a simple 3-level overcall is almost forcing (although displaying a certain avatar and then using the phrase "like kinda pregnant" by one forum member raises some questions). Ya gotta compete when appropriate.

[Fluffy]

huh? Wouldn't people overcall 3S with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x pretty routinely?

This is a routine pass for me over 3♣, life has these things :D

[Guest Jlall]

yeah...to each his own :D

[awm]

Over a preempt, my preferred style is that doubling and then bidding always shows an interest in alternative contracts. So for example after 3♣:

 

X then bid spades = normally five card spades, maybe bad six, willing to play in a red suit

4♠ direct = just spades, good hand

X then bid hearts = normally five hearts, almost surely 3+ spades

X then 3NT = some interest in a major suit contract, partner can pull to 4M with 5-card suit

3NT = "I want to play 3NT" (could be running diams + stopper, partner should rarely pull)

[toothbrush]

this is how I see things after a 3♣ opening form opps:

3♦/♥/♠ immediately is a constructive hand with a good 6 card, opening values, but NOT forcing at all

3NT strong and balanced OR good ♦, of course with stop ♣, can have 5card♠

4♣ shows both majors or an almost slam-forcing hand

4♦ as world convention

4♠ is to play with no slam interest

 

DBL shows opening values and a 3suiter

 

bidding after double still shows a (+/-) 3suiter, but with a stronger hand (15+hcp); a very strong hand should be bid immediately with 4!c i think. After a double the chance is bigger that partner has good ♣ and he'll pass out your dbl, and with a hand with slam-interest in ♠ you don't want that to happen

[Blofeld]

What's the world convention?

 

I can't find anything about it online.

[luis]

3♠ is not forcing at all to me, I like to bid 3♠ when I think 3♠ is a logic option to release some pressure from pd. Passing with hands that can bid 3♠ only increase pd problems.

A direct 4♠ is usually a intermediate hand with 6 or 7 spades.

Double followed by 3♠ is strong(ish).

 

Maybe it is too simple but I confess it is what I play.

 

Luis

[toothbrush]

What's the world convention?

 

I can't find anything about it online.

a good 2-suiter with ♦ and a Major, GF

[joker_gib]

3♠ is not forcing at all to me, I like to bid 3♠ when I think 3♠ is a logic option to release some pressure from pd. Passing with hands that can bid 3♠ only increase pd problems.

A direct 4♠ is usually a intermediate hand with 6 or 7 spades.

Double followed by 3♠ is strong(ish).

 

Maybe it is too simple but I confess it is what I play.

 

Luis

I like those simple things ! B)

 

That's how I play too.

 

Alain

[toothbrush]

I don't think you want to double with this hand, all vulnerable:

♠ KQJTxxx

♥ KQ

♦ AKQJ

♣ -

 

and risk that p has good ♣ and passes!!! I think dbl is the worst thing you can do with this hand.

imo DBL should show a 3-suiter with short ♣ and at least opening values

With the hand above I may bid 4♣ to show ♠ in a next round, if partner passes then he must have a very useless hand.

[MickyB]

You'd pass over 3♣ with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x Fluffy? Yuck...you've got the club shortage so pard is never going to balance without a lot of strength, you're gonna miss game so often here.

[luis]

I don't think you want to double with this hand, all vulnerable:

♠ KQJTxxx

♥ KQ

♦ AKQJ

♣ -

 

and risk that p has good ♣ and passes!!! I think dbl is the worst thing you can do with this hand.

imo DBL should show a 3-suiter with short ♣ and at least opening values

With the hand above I may bid 4♣ to show ♠ in a next round, if partner passes then he must have a very useless hand.

I disagree with everything you say

With the hand you post I just bid 6♠ how many times will I hold such a hand?

[flytoox]

huh? Wouldn't people overcall 3S with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x pretty routinely?

This is a routine pass for me over 3♣, life has these things :)

I will preempt much more often when I get chance to play against you:)

[pclayton]

My style:

 

A 3 level overcall isn't forcing over a preempt, but new suits are 100% forcing.A cue promises primary support.

 

A jump overcall shows the upper range of a IJO to a SJO - 15 - 19 and a 6-7 bagger.

 

3N shows 16-21 and balanced or a trick source.

 

A double followed by a new suit shows a good hand, likely a 5 card suit and may be offshape. A double of 3C followed by 3S (over 3D) shows something like: AKxxx, AQx, AQ, xxx.

 

Cues can be what you want - but I play Michaels here.

[Fluffy]

You'd pass over 3♣ with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x Fluffy? Yuck...you've got the club shortage so pard is never going to balance without a lot of strength, you're gonna miss game so often here.

wtih 11 HCP+ he will balance with 3NT if has lenght in ♣, that's how the trick works.

[MickyB]

You'd pass over 3♣ with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x Fluffy? Yuck...you've got the club shortage so pard is never going to balance without a lot of strength, you're gonna miss game so often here.

wtih 11 HCP+ he will balance with 3NT if has lenght in ♣, that's how the trick works.

Why put such pressure on balancer? It isn't like over a 1 level bid, where you keep quiet in direct seat because you expect LHO to bid - in this case, you expect LHO to pass (or worse still, further the preempt).

[hrothgar]

You'd pass over 3♣ with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x Fluffy? Yuck...you've got the club shortage so pard is never going to balance without a lot of strength, you're gonna miss game so often here.

wtih 11 HCP+ he will balance with 3NT if has lenght in ♣, that's how the trick works.

This type of strategy is completely unsound...

 

If RHO knows that your system requires mandatory balancing at the 3 level with a flat 11 count he'll start trap passing like mad. The only way that these types of agreements work is if you fail to provide the opponents with adequate disclosure.

[Fluffy]

Overcalling with 12 is better strategy? go and pass partner's pre as much as you like.