stuffed up by psyche

[Huibertus]

Yes, double by East means ♠, you have to have this agreement in order to prevent exactly this baby psych to work against you. Just to add, it should mean "I WANTED to bid that" not "I HAD to bid that", a subtle difference.

 

Apart from that, what's wrong with W? Did he know North was going to psych and did he assume he was going to defend 1♠ doubled? There is no other excuse for him not to bid 1♠ himself.

 

And then the final pass of E? How in the world can one not raise with that hand when you think partner has a strong hand (should realy be even stronger then the actual hand) and lots of spades (otherwise E would not have passed 3♠)?

[AL78]

Apart from that, what's wrong with W? Did he know North was going to psych and did he assume he was going to defend 1♠ doubled? There is no other excuse for him not to bid 1♠ himself.

 

Her partner prefers to play that a with an opening hand and a suit, to double first, hence she doubled instead of overcalling.

[AL78]

Until a few years ago I never even heard of the rule of 19

 

When I first learned to bid many moons ago I think (as a beginner) I was expected to have 12/13 HCPs before opening the bidding

Then reading stuff I learned about distribution points and myself started opening with a few fewer points depending on distribution

Then I learned about being more pre-emptive and trends for openers started getting lighter

Then I found out that everyone was using weak 2s instead of strong 2s so had to incorporate that into my bidding

Then many years later I started looking at things like losers in my hand as an additional variant on top of HCPs and distribution and how I felt on that day

I read about rule of 19 once somewhere thats all

 

The problem on that hand for me is the nonsensical double - you have one suit and one suit only etc hat is West messing around with and then to compound that why is East doing nothing

 

I appreciate everyone has weird and wonderful systems with all kinds of strange systems but complaining about the opening bid. Its ridiculous

 

I am sorry if I sound disrepsetcful but I would not want to learn bridge from anyone who didnt explain the ridiculousness of that auction

 

Why are we even wasting time reading and analysing and commenting on such a stupid auction

 

Whatever you think of the auction, I only asked whether East doubling on the first round to show spades is a standard way of exposing the psyche. No need to lay into me, I wasn't even playing that evening, and as I've said, if it were me I would have overcalled on the West hand and the psyche would never have happened.

[AL78]

Remind me never ever to even go close to a bridge club again

 

I havent been to one for decades because of this kind of rubbish

 

You will have to clarify. Its still not clear who is whinging but it seems to me its EW complaining about being incompetent and incapable of bidding to a spade game and blaming it on a perfectly reasonable (albeit light) opening by South

 

What is the deal. Seriously

 

West sent me the hand and was initially (lightly) complaining about it, she never said anything about the opening bid. It is one or two posters here that have latched on to this. EW haven't come across psyches or how to deal with them, West seems to be of the opinion that psyches are wrong, I keep telling her it is part of the game, they are perfectly legal, they don't come up very often. From what she told me, East never cottened on to the psyche, believing she held exactly five spades and there was a 4-0 break, that may have been why he passed. Normally he is quite an aggressive bidder, so somewhat unusual he didn't bid anything during the auction.

[thepossum]

West sent me the hand and was initially (lightly) complaining about it, she never said anything about the opening bid. It is one or two posters here that have latched on to this. EW haven't come across psyches or how to deal with them, West seems to be of the opinion that psyches are wrong, I keep telling her it is part of the game, they are perfectly legal, they don't come up very often. From what she told me, East never cottened on to the psyche, believing she held exactly five spades and there was a 4-0 break, that may have been why he passed. Normally he is quite an aggressive bidder, so somewhat unusual he didn't bid anything during the auction.

 

Sorry for deleting my post. I didnt realise you had responded

 

It just makes me angry or furstrated with bidding like that that people complain about stuff

 

I mean seriously. People bidding like that West bid. Whoever is responsible for what and whoever is complaining about stuff. etc

 

I'm sorry and I know I'm not a senior or advanced player but I played my whole life and take the game very seiriously

 

But that auction is a joke

 

I actually thought the problem was the crazy double. Then I come back to the thread and everyone is talking about the 1 heart opening being a psych and needing alerting.

 

What planet are you all on

 

I have tested that opening bid with various pices of software, and bidding systems and none of them had a problem bidding to game after that bid.

 

Seriously

 

And I get scared commenting. I get scared about beng regarded as disrepsetcful. But what is disrespectful is anyone even questionning that 1 heart opening bid and making an issue of it

 

EDIT But I wish I had not even commented on this ridiculous auction. The only reason for rhis post is that sadly you had commented on one of my deleted (angry) posts so I needed to respond to be fair to your response :) I will not comment again

[bluenikki]

This hand came up with my friend and her partner.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s5hajt85dkq8ct864&w=sajt9863hkq2d73ca&n=s2h94dajt54cqj932&e=skq74h763d962ck75&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1hd1sp2h3sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

This was worth 21%, all but one were in 4 or 5♠ making 10 or 11 tricks. The 21% was obtained because three pairs went off in 5♠.

 

I've heard that this is a basic situation to psyche, and I recall there is a way for the opponents to expose it. Is it doubling in 4th seat to show a spade suit?

 

In all *published* methods of advancing a takeout double, (1y) - Dbl - (1z) - Dbl shows 4 or more z.

 

This is not just to account for outright psychs, but for goose-psychs on 5432, where it still might be your best strain.

[Vampyr]

I'd be surprised at that. Most beginners I know were taught the rule of 19.

 

I know an experienced player at the club that doesn't like people upgrading any balanced 11 count to a weak NT (e.g. one with working honors and several tens and nines). He thinks if they do that their card should say 11-14 1NT.

 

Something like (11)12-14 would be more accurate than 11-14 or 12-14, as long as they do not upgrade very often.

[Douglas43]

I don't think that Vampyr is right to suggest that a non-forcing change of suit after a weak two is not alertable under EBU regulations?

 

The EBU Blue Book requires an alert of:

 

A non-forcing new suit response, to a non-forcing suit opening at any level, below game, unless responder has previously passed, bids over a natural NT overcall, or makes a double jump [para 4 H 2 (d) on page 17 of the 2019 Blue Book https://www.ebu.co.uk/documents/laws-and-ethics/blue-book/blue-book.pdf ]

 

The Blue Book now also contains a provision to the effect of "if in doubt, alert":

 

2 A 2 These regulations are secondary to the duty of full disclosure (Law 40A). If a player is uncertain whether the regulations require an alert, but believes it would help the opponents, he should alert. At the end of the auction the declaring side may offer additional information, even if not requested. In particular, they are encouraged to draw attention to any calls whose meaning the defending side have not asked about but may not expect.

 

My only disappointment is that EBU went for alerts rather than announcements on non-forcing natural bids (I'd prefer announcements because less risk of UI for defending side who have to decide whether to ask about an alert). I raised the topic with the EBU magazine in the context of playing weak jump shifts (similar problem of disclosure, and strong jump shifts are still more "standard" in Britain). A senior TD confirmed that they are alertable.

 

Here is a link to the EBU magazine of October 2018 (see page 34 "ask Robin") https://view.pagetiger.com/3gs6sh8cndheg4/k9sd6agebq4w5s

[Vampyr]

 

I actually thought the problem was the crazy double. Then I come back to the thread and everyone is talking about the 1 heart opening being a psych and needing alerting.

 

What planet are you all on

 

I don’t think we’re on a different planet; I just think we are reading a different thread.

 

In this thread someone said that from some points of view the 1♥ opening could be considered a psyche, and then someone explained the rule of 19. Every other post have been about either the ridiculous double or the failure of East/West to expose a psyche, plus East’s weird interpretation of the auction.

 

By the way, doubling instead of overcalling with an opening bid is something I once saw in a Terence Reese book. So doubling with offshape minimums has considerable historical precedent. The fact that beginners would not know to whether to alert this is no reason for it not to be alertable. New players need to learn the alerting regulations in their jurisdiction.

 

By the way, the rule of 19 and rule of 20, which some people use instead, Is that intended to be used willy-nilly. It should be used only on marginal hands when it is close whether to open it or not.

[Vampyr]

I don't think that Vampyr is right to suggest that a non-forcing change of suit after a weak two is not alertable under EBU regulations?

 

The EBU Blue Book requires an alert of:

 

A non-forcing new suit response, to a non-forcing suit opening at any level, below game, unless responder has previously passed, bids over a natural NT overcall, or makes a double jump [para 4 H 2 (d) on page 17 of the 2019 Blue Book https://www.ebu.co.uk/documents/laws-and-ethics/blue-book/blue-book.pdf ]

 

I see. It seems that my information was out of date. This is good.

[Douglas43]

Something like (11)12-14 would be more accurate than 11-14 or 12-14, as long as they do not upgrade very often.

 

Vampyr's point is helpful. I upgrade genuinely good 11 counts and downgrade really bad 15 counts, my card describes 1NT as "11+ to 14 / bad 15"

[mycroft]

Whatever you think of the auction, I only asked whether East doubling on the first round to show spades is a standard way of exposing the psyche.

To this, the answer is yes, but getting less common over time. It might even be less than 50% in Flight A in several parts of the ACBL (don't know English styles very well, sorry).

 

The key is, when you decide that the double here means minors (which is what is replacing "this is my suit", or "I was going to bid this"), you gain flexibility in the huge number of auctions where there wasn't a psych (or you don't have the 8-card fit with the 4-1 break). That's actually a pretty big thing, really. Whether the added fragility to the baby psych or the natural bid your fit is worth it depends strongly on the frequency of (baby psych or steal your fit). Which leads to the argument I made in my previous response - players' reaction to "my system doesn't protect against psychs any more" isn't "change the system", it's "try to drive psychs out of the game, even though they're 'legal' "; I guess it's a strategy, of sorts. I like "800 if you're wrong, 620 if you're right", myself.

[hrothgar]

Even if you are playing that X shows Spades here, I'd still bid 1NT with the West hand

 

You have Spades stopped

You have Clubs stopped

You have a 4-3-3-3 shape

You have the right point count

 

I think that this is the most descriptive bid.

[AL78]

Even if you are playing that X shows Spades here, I'd still bid 1NT with the West hand

 

You have Spades stopped

You have Clubs stopped

You have a 4-3-3-3 shape

You have the right point count

 

I think that this is the most descriptive bid.

 

The only think is you don't have hearts stopped. Everything else is consistent.

[bluenikki]

(or you don't have the 8-card fit with the 4-1 break)

 

When the goose-psycher has the moral equivalence of 5432, a 4-3 fit in the suit could well be your best strain: cross-ruffs with no over-ruff.

 

Avoiding having to guess what minor to bid first is a trivial consideration.

[aawk]

To me the hand is not a double. First double than introducing a new suit showing a strong hand needs more than your 14 HCP. I would bid 4♠.

 

But now your partner is faced with a jump to 3♠, holding KQxx in ♠ must be enough to bid 4♠. Why you ask, trust your partner.

[dsLawsd]

What could partner have to double first and then jump to 3♠ showing a strong hand? about 8-9 tricks and you have KQxx!

I might have just overcalled 4♠to start...

Part of our bridge education?

[miamijd]

Goodness. I can't say as any of the players bid this hand well at all!

 

1H is way too aggressive. Just pass.

 

I have more sympathy for the X than the other posters here. West has a nine-trick hand, for goodness sakes (assuming the opening 1H bidder has the Ah). She needs virtually nothing from her partner except the Ks. I would X as well, despite the lack of HCP, as I think this hand is way too good for a NV 4S bid.

 

North's 1S psyche is just awful against competent opponents.

 

East needs to X. Period. Do NOT play responsive Xs here. It's not just exposing psyches that's the problem. It's also the situation where North has four spades and South is void. You really want them to bid normally and talk you out of your 9-card fit?

 

2H is an awful call. You know partner has 2 or fewer. Why not bid 1NT or 2C?

 

East's failure to X puts West in a tough spot. 3S sounds like you're asking for a heart stopper for 3NT here. When the opponents have bid two suits, you show stops rather than ask. So maybe you have a running minor and a spade stop. 2S sounds like a cue-bid, but I think that's what I would do. Then I would bid 3S over whatever East did, and hopefully he'll get the message.

 

I don't see how East can pass 3S. Either East thinks this is showing a spade stop for NT (in which case, without a H stop, he has to bid 4C) or else he thinks West actually has spades, in which case he has an easy raise to 4. I would bid 4C and then pass West's 4S.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[pilowsky]

Rule of 19: Add your HCP and the length of your two longest suits. If it comes to 19 or more you can open. I have heard a variant on this called the rule of 21, where you include number of quick tricks, if it comes to 20.5 or more (green vuln), 21 or more (equal vuln), or 21.5 or more (red vuln) you can open. A point knocked off for Qx, Jx stiff K, a point added for AJT.

 

You evidently have come across a poor bridge teacher. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. I've been complemented by students when I have given bridge workshops at my club, I put lessons together almost entirely from my own knowledge and experience, only very occasionally looking up what is standard to teach to beginners where there is some ambiguity.

 

No, FTF I have yet to come across a good bridge teacher. I have come across many excellent Bridge players who can explain when pressed single elements of bidding or play. That is not the same thing as being an educator.

An educator provides a person with the tools to learn. They explain things to them with clarity. They reveal the underlying mechanisms. They do not trot out rules and say "do this" and you'll be right. That works for a youtube video or a chalk talk.

 

It does explain why the "Bridge teachers" that I've met get upset when I start asking them why it works that way. I just assumed it was because they wanted me to pay them for their time. Now I'm beginning to think that in most cases it's because they were not capable of providing a coherent explanation.

 

This is not surprising because the training to become a Teacher of Bridge is that you put your hand in the air and say "I'm a Bridge teacher" plus, you can play Bridge and you are over the age of 15. At least to become a real Teacher, apart from actual training in teaching, you also need to have a criminal record check and a working with children check.

You also need to have your vaccinations up-to-date in Australia.

So, no I wasn't impressed with the Trump-supporting plagiarist at that Club - even if he does have a yellow star which by the way is an antisemitic symbol. I did offer to help him with his approach to education btw! you can imagine how that went down. He thinks he's perfect.

 

The "secret" to learning, as every clever person knows, is to be aware that there are always smarter people than you around. That you can always learn something new and that it is smart to appear stupid.

[thepossum]

Whatever you think of the auction, I only asked whether East doubling on the first round to show spades is a standard way of exposing the psyche. No need to lay into me, I wasn't even playing that evening, and as I've said, if it were me I would have overcalled on the West hand and the psyche would never have happened.

 

 

THIS IS A DRAFT

 

PLEASE WAIT UNTIL I POST A RESPONSE TO YOUR ACCUSATION

 

IT WILL BE COMPLETE WHEN I DELETE THIS HEADER

 

THANKS

 

BUT FOR THE RECORD AND ANYONE READING THIS

 

1. You quoted a post that I actually deleted for good reason - not because it contained anything I don't stand but for any number of reasons

 

2. It takes a long time to write, format and edit long posts on the crappy tools we have available these days. So please be patient

 

3. But a few years ago when I first joined a few characters caused me a lot of trouble and caused conflict and misunderstanding with many of the good people on these forums. I have a vahue recollection of names but cant be sure. But the kind of trouble you are stirring up here makes me wonder ok.

 

4. In fact I pretty much stand by anything I have ever said or written with the proviso that everyone makes errors, typos, occasionally things get heated etc. It doesnt need people causing problems. Especially with quoted pieces of deleted text. I actually only saw your responses after I had deleted three posts immediately after posting them because I didnt like the content

 

5. It may all appear innocent and I am not making an accusation. I need to be very careful. Never know who I am talking to and the way they act to cause problems for someone on public forums

 

6. I very much doubt I have ever said much I didn't feel was justified at any time, and often was provoked. And often the people behind the stresses, the problems, the provcation sit quietly and unnoticed. Just saying. No accuastions ok

 

7. Do you know how stress and hurt unfounded accsations can cause - personally and professionally. After being pushed into a situation of being accsed of being a troll a few years ago, I essentially was so upset I stopped posting for ages. Eventually everythign calmed down. Then I made the mistake of buying into this thread about a ridiculous auction

 

8. And it does seem strange that my comments are those singled out for attention with an accusation. Everyone else made various levels of criticism of that auction

 

9 THis kind of rubbish, stress, conlfict, defence against unjust accusations can cause so much wasted time, problems in every part of someone's life. Its taking me away from very important tasks and important people, just to respond to these kind of tactics

 

Thats why this response may take some time but I have to deal with an accusation of this kind. Its unbeleivable. Life is too short for this. I cant believe it. One ridiculous auction and it gets blown up like this

 

I'm just an ordinary (mainly social), half competent Bridge player who has been learning and playing for over 40 years. Its nice to be able to comment on posts without being dragged into all the ridicuous legalistic type stuff. I will leave that up to those who do need to think about it in their lives and careers. I don't appreciate being dragged into this at all.

 

You are offically now on my "Do not interact under any circumstances" list because of the trouble that always seems to ensue - if my memory serves me. I have aflaky memory but names tend to stick even in forums after many years

 

Does it ever cross anyone's mind that there are people who are genuinely very sensitive, and get hurt at personal attack like that, especially when it can cause problems in every area of life, and every area of trust. Its often those who get the most hurt who can appear to be the trouble maker.Life and the word is like that. Something I have personal and professional experience in, even some clinical training. So please be careful who you try to wind up and make look bad, if that is every anyone's intent

 

I'm still looking for the words that constituted laying in. All the words I am drafting up are a response (with emotion) to a personal attack and accusation against my person and who I am

 

Maybe if you have much experience of the world you may find that often the best people, the gentlest people, the most responsible people, those with most stresses and pressures in their lives actually come across as assholes sometimes or angry. When in fact its the cool cucumbers who maybe are the problem sometimes

 

I wasted so much time writing those messages because of how much that auction essentially insulted me and my feelings about Bridge. It actually offended me enough to start writing those posts. The content I stand by. I am critiquing the auction, nothing else

 

But do you know how much time and emotional energy has been wasted by that one ridiculous auction being posted. Many hours of my time. And as I said its taking me away from important tasks, important people, and actually causing conflicts and troubles elsewhere I could do without. You know some of us have responsibilites and cant waste all our time dealing with chat about a missed game that most people would have reached easily

[AL78]

THIS IS A DRAFT

 

PLEASE WAIT UNTIL I POST A RESPONSE TO YOUR ACCUSATION

 

THANKS

 

BUT FOR THE RECORD AND ANYONE READING THIS

 

1. You quoted a post that I actually deleted for good reason - not because it contained anything I don't stand but for any number of reasons

 

2. It takes a long time to write, format and edit long posts on the crappy tools we have available these days. So please be patient

 

3. But a few years ago when I first joined a few characters caused me a lot of trouble and caused conflict and misunderstanding with many of the good people on these forums. I have a vahue recollection of names but cant be sure. But the kind of trouble you are stirring up here makes me wonder ok.

 

It wasn't deleted at the time I quoted it, so I may well choose to respond to it. How am I supposed to know that you are going to delete a post I may decide to respond too and quote, and why should I care? If you are in doubt about whether you should post something, don't, but don't complain if you choose to post something on a public forum and someone then decides to quote and respond to it. That is what happens on forums like this.

 

I'm not stirring up any trouble, it is you that is throwing out an antagonistic attitude like you have a chip on your shoulder. Don't try and project your attitude onto me. If you've had problems with other people, maybe it is you that is the problem, in my experience people who whinge about how bad other people are, are their own worst enemy.

[thepossum]

It wasn't deleted at the time I quoted it, so I may well choose to respond to it. How am I supposed to know that you are going to delete a post I may decide to respond too and quote, and why should I care? If you are in doubt about whether you should post something, don't, but don't complain if you choose to post something on a public forum and someone then decides to quote and respond to it. That is what happens on forums like this.

 

I'm not stirring up any trouble, it is you that is throwing out an antagonistic attitude like you have a chip on your shoulder. Don't try and project your attitude onto me. If you've had problems with other people, maybe it is you that is the problem, in my experience people who whinge about how bad other people are, are their own worst enemy.

 

Please. I asked you to wait until I had finished writing. No need to push this any further. This will be a final statement in defence.

 

Just back off please. I'm asking nicely. I am the one having to deal with a problem here not you.

 

All because of some irrlevant stupid auction. Do you not get that

 

Are you going to keep this game going forever, copy and pasting and quoting chunks. What is your problem

 

Please just drop it and let the thing die a natural death once I have completed my response. I am not making an accusation aginst you. I am making a defence.

 

Do you not even understand what I am saying.

 

I wrote a few posts and deleted them almost immediately to wake up this morning and find responses that had been sitting there all night to my deletd posts. Do you not understand that is a problem of the technology we deal with. Not an opportunity to cause trouble.

 

So I am asking nicely to wait until I respond. There will be no argument. Just a staement of defence and no further conversation with you at all ever because of the problems. Maybe you don't understand the issues.

 

Sorry I need to go. I have many more important people I need to talk to. But please just wait and stop jumping and quoting every single I write before I hardly geta chance to read it myself

 

But as I said, I stand by anything and everyhting I ever write. They occasionlyy have typos or word errors needing correcting. But we all have a right to correct an error especially on this kind of technology and the devices we have to use and the editing tools.

 

Thats more emotional upset and wasted time. Lets take a break please.

 

But finally for the moment. Do you not realise how totally tricial and insiginificant a post on these forums is when there is a big world out there will real problems and people trying to fix them

 

But seriously come on. In any issue like this there is usually one party (often the wronged one) who is actually trying to defuse a ridiulous over-reaction toa triviality and another party intent on perpetuating it forever. As I said after this there will nevr be any interaction again. My defence and statement will stand alone. I cant stop you quoting me ad nauseum but thats how it is.

 

And I am not going to use the "t" word an accusation thrown at me due to riduclous conflicts a few years ago caused by those to whom the label really applies - usually unknown. The perps usually keep hidden and enjoy the mayhem

 

Some of us are actually totally professional ethical people, people who have things to protect both for our own individual sakes but also everyone else who depends on our reputation, trust and professionalism. I am not having some nobody undermine that on an irrelevant forum Got it yet

 

Do you realise now, when things like this happen, that I now have to waste so much time constantly checking everywhere for misquotes, quotes out of context. How much time taken from important tasks and important people by careless use of quoting and not letting the thing die

 

THE END

 

PS If I thought you were of a cooperative mindset rather than a conflictual one, we could just delete the whole sorry affair. Not holding my breath though. Thats in your court

[TylerE]

thepossum showing his true colors again. Someone needs a forum timeout.

[thepossum]

thepossum showing his true colors again. Someone needs a forum timeout.

 

Hello again Tyler. I think it is you shwoing your true colours.

 

A few years ago when you attacked me as part of the bullying squad I requested that you never commented on any of my threads again. This is not one of my threads but you did not heed my reasonable request to avoid further conflict. However you did post on other threads in a mroe reasonable way, as have some of the others who were also involved in unnecessary conflcit. They seem to have learned polite behaviour. I thought you had too. Seems I was wrong.

 

Is the rest of the bullying squad going to show up. Do I have to keep checking every five minutes

 

Maybe for once some of you could use your alleged smarts and look back and see how the problem started in this thread. OK

 

It actually started with the original post, but the attack against me and use of a deleted post. I stand by everything I said in it. It was deleted for good reason. Some people are so quick at quoting and responding you dont even get a chance to see it yourself.

 

Maybe you could back off too. What is your problem Tyler. Maybe you could stay out.

 

yet another thread needing defence opens up

 

Do you all just like wasting good people's valuable time defending themselves or what

[thepossum]

Do I have to spend the rest of my life searching this whole site, the whole internet for any other threads of attack being opened up.

 

Its another polite rwuest to just cease and desist, anyone else wanting to join in

 

What the proverbial hell is going on.

 

The world is going to hell because of this kind of rubbish

 

Its a trivial isue being beaten up into a fight and hurting and attacking someone for no good reason at all as far as I can see

 

What is your problem (that aplies to those it applies to and only them)

 

Why was I singled out again. Am I the only person on this site not entitled to a view on Bridge

 

the proverbial pile on. Then each defence gets attacked again and they multiply faster than you can deal with them

 

Its is totally ridicuous and meanwhile we are being taken away from what is important (at least those of us with important *****)

 

Do you actually know how long it is going to take me to write my letter of defence, report. I think I will extend it to cover the whole of the last three years and post it on any thread where I have been maligned. Thats if people keep starting up avenues that need defending

 

What I really don't understand why a very ordinary Bridge player with no standing in the game (other than enjoying the game and playing it for years) is such a threat to so many senior (apparently) members of the world bridge community