When your hand contributes negative tricks

[pescetom]

I hope The Possum stays.

He already started a new topic :)

But he seems to have given up on this one, so here is the hand of North:

♠AQ4 ♥AKQ83 ♦2 ♣KQJ4.

Not a hand I would choose to open 2♣.

[Zelandakh]

♠AQ4 ♥AKQ83 ♦2 ♣KQJ4.

Not a hand I would choose to open 2♣.

Your 2♣ opening probably has a different meaning from the OP though. Would you open it 2♣ in Benji, SEF or Forum D? Or 2♥ playing Strong 2s? Notice here also how the methods played their part - if 2♥ was an immediate negative then the pair can play the hand there. If 2NT was the second negative after 2♦, the pair could have played 3♣. Only with the negatives being 2♦+3♣ does the pair end up in 3♥ on a 5-1 fit. There are certainly some system lessons to be learnt here but precisely which ones you take away are a matter of conjecture.

[Cyberyeti]

He already started a new topic :)

But he seems to have given up on this one, so here is the hand of North:

♠AQ4 ♥AKQ83 ♦2 ♣KQJ4.

Not a hand I would choose to open 2♣.

 

borderline for me, partner isn't going to expect to make game with lots of hands that are nowhere close to a response with flat nothings no better than a couple of jacks.

 

I probably wouldn't because we play any rebid other than 2N as FG, I think playing something more standard it's really close.

[pescetom]

Your 2♣ opening probably has a different meaning from the OP though. Would you open it 2♣ in Benji, SEF or Forum D? Or 2♥ playing Strong 2s? Notice here also how the methods played their part - if 2♥ was an immediate negative then the pair can play the hand there. If 2NT was the second negative after 2♦, the pair could have played 3♣. Only with the negatives being 2♦+3♣ does the pair end up in 3♥ on a 5-1 fit. There are certainly some system lessons to be learnt here but precisely which ones you take away are a matter of conjecture.

 

We too play any rebid other than 2NT (or Kokish 2NT) as game forcing, so yes the 2♣ meaning is different.

 

I don't have a strong 2♥ bid, haven't much experience of playing one and I've seen different ways of playing it too. The local old ladies play that a 2NT response is a non-forcing negative and while passing that might not be a disaster (1 down on this layout, like 3♥), I might as well have opened 2NT in the first place (RA and partner permitting). In the 4-card majors I was taught, the 2NT response was effectively forcing and just denied 5-card ♠ or a well honoured minor: now my 3♣ rebid would be forcing too, so we can't stop below 3♥ bid by responder and risk going higher. Happy to have a different system with problems of its own.

[mycroft]

I hate that hand for 2♣. Two-suiters are bad after 2♣, pseudo-three-suiters are worse. Having hearts the main suit makes it worse, for those who use 2♥ as the immediate ultra-negative. Do you bid 3♥ (forcing?) Do you pass 2♥ and hope for xx? Fake a 2NT "opener" and hope partner bids Stayman or transfers to spades?

 

Actually with one partner, where we play Kokish Relay, it's specifically designed to handle this problem: 2♣-2♦ (semi-auto); 2♥-2♠("forced"); 3♣ shows this hand, but is GF.

[AL78]

Really? I thought that was considered a bit prehistoric even by most ACOL pairs these days. Am I wrong?

 

Yes, Benji Acol, is popular at club level in the UK, although the beginners at my club are taught three weak twos.