When your hand contributes negative tricks

[thepossum]

Hi all

 

One of my worst hands ever when I should not even have bid a double negative to a game force

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st732h9d98652ct83&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=pp2c(GF)p2d(Waiting%2Fnegative)p2h(Forcing to 3H))p3c(Cheaper%20minor)p3hppp]133|200[/hv]

 

 

Will post partners hand but I would certainly also have opened it 2C

[TylerE]

Passing 2♣ is dumb, if that's what you're suggesting.

 

Double negative is also kinda dumb (as a convention)

[thepossum]

Thread ruined already

 

I shouldn't even give your comment the dignity of a response

 

You should know me well enough by now that your first sentence is an insult

 

I was considering passing 2H

 

Some tables did manage to scrape together 8 tricks but sadly our table only managed 7 tricks

 

However your comment wasnt as dumb as it seems since 2C makes

[smerriman]

Can passing forcing bids lead to a better score? Yes.

 

Does that mean you should have passed a forcing bid here? Of course not. When partner has game in his own hand, you're going to look ridiculous. Just bid normally; everyone else will be in the same spot (unless they are really bad players).

 

Even contemplating it is showing a pretty significant lack of bidding knowledge.

 

And to be honest, my first thought was that you were thinking about passing 2♣ too - not as an insult, simply because I would consider passing 2♥ equally bad, so it wasn't clear which of those two options you were thinking about.

[thepossum]

Can passing forcing bids lead to a better score? Yes.

 

Does that mean you should have passed a forcing bid here? Of course not. When partner has game in his own hand, you're going to look ridiculous. Just bid normally; everyone else will be in the same spot (unless they are really bad players).

 

Even contemplating it is showing a pretty significant lack of bidding knowledge.

 

And to be honest, my first thought was that you were thinking about passing 2♣ too - not as an insult, simply because I would consider passing 2♥ equally bad, so it wasn't clear which of those two options you were thinking about.

 

Did you seriously think my question was about passing 2C

 

After years on these forums you think I am that stupid.

 

You lot are unbelievable

 

This will probably be my last ever post on these forums and after I have used my last BB$ probably the last dollars I will ever contribute to BBO

[shyams]

Agree with smerriman. You cannot pass 2♣, even if in this instance you would have scored better.

[smerriman]

Did you seriously think my question was about passing 2C

 

After years on these forums you think I am that stupid.

Yes, I did. Like I mentioned, I don't believe you are stupid, but I consider passing 2♥ an equally bad mistake as passing 2♣. So how could I possibly know which one you consider an insult and which one you don't?

[DavidKok]

Personally on auctions like this I take comfort in the fact that this is a deliberate trade-off we make by choosing a bidding system. At the actual table the choice is out of your hands - forcing bids are forcing, and therefore you must bid. If you feel you can do better by changing your system (for example opening 3.5-4 loser hands on the 1-level) then discuss this after the game.

[gordontd]

This will probably be my last ever post on these forums and after I have used my last BB$ probably the last dollars I will ever contribute to BBO

Haven't we heard this before?

[pescetom]

If you feel you can do better by changing your system (for example opening 3.5-4 loser hands on the 1-level) then discuss this after the game.

 

I don't think this particular partner discusses much. Nor do I agree with his decision to open 2♣ with a 21 HCP 3=5=1=4, however many losers he counts.

[nullve]

I would have passed 3♥ (forcing or not).

[mycroft]

Very very simple. When you choose to pass a forcing bid, you are psyching (deliberately and grossly distorting your hand - there is no meaning for "pass"). Therefore, all caveats that apply when you psych apply here:

• if you get a bad score, you get 100% of the blame, even if partner revoked in the play.
  
• If partner is a "no psyches" person, well you just psyched. Expect the same reaction, whether or not it was right this time.
  
• If partner can't let it go, and starts compensating - "I can't afford to have you pass this one, partner" - it's done. That might be partner's problem, not yours, but the partnership is not likely to recover.
  

I have parts of my system where the agreement is "Non-forcing, but we never pass", or "I'm allowed to pass, but I better be right". This is one step beyond that.

 

A misfitting zero count opposite a 2♣ opener might still make game. If you go down in 3♥, that's life. If you go +170 in 2♥, partner will remember it next year.

[Cyberyeti]

If you pass 2♥ partner has AKQJx, AKxxxxx, A, void and you miss a grand on a 3-2 heart break

[Zelandakh]

If you use an immediate 2♥ as a double negative, partner can pass with an Acol 2 in hearts or bid 3♥ with game in hand. Not only does this avoid faffing around with the dreaded lower minor second negative but it also saves you a level when you are not going to reach game.

[nullve]

Very very simple. When you choose to pass a forcing bid, you are psyching (deliberately and grossly distorting your hand - there is no meaning for "pass").

I agree.

 

I would have passed 3♥ (forcingunlimited or not).

[johnu]

I would have passed 3♥ (forcing or not).

2♥ was forcing to 3♥, and after a 2nd negative, 3♥ is not forcing.

[helene_t]

You never pass a forcing bid.

 

There may be a few exceptions, such as when you has extraneous AI that one of the opponents have enough defense to take any game contract down, or if you have psyched yourself.

 

This doesn't apply here, so bid something.

[Cyberyeti]

You never pass a forcing bid.

 

There may be a few exceptions, such as when you has extraneous AI that one of the opponents have enough defense to take any game contract down, or if you have psyched yourself.

 

This doesn't apply here, so bid something.

 

The most usual exception is that partner makes a technically forcing bid having passed initially and you decide you can't possibly be making game opposite an initial pass with a light misfitting opener.

 

In this auction passing 3♥ is safe, but passing 2♥ deserves partner to have 11 or 12 tricks in his hand.

[helene_t]

OK but then "technically forcing" just means non-forcing. There are few natural bids by passed hands that are forcing.

 

In this auction, 2♣ was explained as GF. If that's really what it is then passing 3♥ is not safe. Partner might have something like A-AKxxxx-Ax-AKQJ.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=st732h9d98652ct83&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=pp2c(GF)p2d(Waiting%2Fnegative)p2h(Forcing to 3H))p3c(Cheaper%20minor)p3hppp]133|200| The Possum "Hi all. One of my worst hands ever when I should not even have bid a double negative to a game force. Will post partners hand but I would certainly also have opened it 2C.[/hv]

Thread ruined already. I shouldn't even give your comment the dignity of a response. You should know me well enough by now that your first sentence is an insult. I was considering passing 2H. Some tables did manage to scrape together 8 tricks but sadly our table only managed 7 tricks. However your comment wasn't as dumb as it seems since 2C makes.

Did you seriously think my question was about passing 2C. After years on these forums you think I am that stupid. You lot are unbelievable. This will probably be my last ever post on these forums and after I have used my last BB$ probably the last dollars I will ever contribute to BBO.

In this auction, 2♣ was explained as GF. If that's really what it is then passing 3♥ is not safe. Partner might have something like A-AKxxxx-Ax-AKQJ.

I hope The Possum stays. Helene_t is right again. The Possum's diagram annotates partner's 2♣ opening as G/F, so all opener's bids, including 3♥ are forcing. Even when it might work, it's inadvisable to pass a forcing bid because it undermines partnership confidence. In the UK, Benjamin is popular solution ...

• 2♣ = ART F/1. After 2♣ - 2♦ -, responder can pass opener's rebid with a poor hand.
• 2♦ = ART G/F

[TylerE]

In the UK, Benjamin is popular solution ...

 

Really? I thought that was considered a bit prehistoric even by most ACOL pairs these days. Am I wrong?

 

It certainly seems bad to give up not just one but TWO bids to poorly describe low frequency hand types.

[johnu]

In this auction, 2♣ was explained as GF. If that's really what it is then passing 3♥ is not safe.

While 2♣ says GF, 2♥ is only forcing to 3♥. And certainly a 2NT rebid by opener is not forcing in normal systems.

[helene_t]

While 2♣ says GF, 2♥ is only forcing to 3♥. And certainly a 2NT rebid by opener is not forcing in normal systems.

Yeah, so the GF annotation is apparently wrong. In that case, 3♥ is presumably nonforcing.

[Zelandakh]

• [*]2

♣ = ART F/1. After 2♣ - 2♦ -, responder can pass opener's rebid with a poor hand.

A common variation is for 2♣ - 2♦ to be game forcing and 2♣ - 2♥ non-forcing.

 

As far as "forcing" goes, it is more "forcing if partner has their call". So the most common case of passing a forcing bid I know is the case of a reverse. It is not at all uncommon, especially in a 5 card major system, to respond to a 1m opening with extreme shortage in the minor and nothing in the way of honour strength at all and then pass any rebid. If that rebid is systemically forcing, c'est la vie. The difference in this case is that Opener is absolutely unlimited in terms of their upper bound of strength. In such cases it is almost never a good idea to pass.

[Cyberyeti]

OK but then "technically forcing" just means non-forcing. There are few natural bids by passed hands that are forcing.

 

In this auction, 2♣ was explained as GF. If that's really what it is then passing 3♥ is not safe. Partner might have something like A-AKxxxx-Ax-AKQJ.

 

GF is shorthand, it likely isn't GF as 2♣-2♦-2N is passable in most systems played these days if 2♦ can be a bust.

 

The kind of auction I'm talking about was where a passed hand fourth suits (non GF) and then bids a suit which should be F1 but sometimes gets passed