your evaluation for this hand pls

[anthony]

your partnership play 2/1, and pd just opened 1♠.

 

you hold [hv=s=saj32haqj7xxd3c32]133|100|[/hv]

 

feel excited? i'm pretty sure you will. But to what extent ? In other words, how strong do you think of this hand?

 

the bidding goes

 

1♠ 2♥.

2♠ ?

 

now pls decide your next action. The 2♠ could be a minimum hand with only 5-card length in the suit, for your reference.

[mike777]

3S wtp?

 

One could argue for starting with some version of Jacoby 2nt and not 2H first but........this should be ok.

 

Note Partner has rebid 2s and has not rebid 2nt or 4 card minor. Bid where your values are!

[pbleighton]

I would have bid 4D in the first round.

 

3S is right in the given auction, unless 4D would show a splinter.

 

Peter

[anthony]

ok, let's assume in the first round, neither 2nt nor any kind of splinter is an option for this parnership. They've agreed that there shouldn't exist a 6-card side suit with such bids.

 

after 2S, 4D IS splinter for them. So i guess Peter would prefer to advance with 4D. then one more question for you, would you keep going on if pd retreats to 4S after 4D?

 

would like to know the percentage of 3S and 4D advocates here :)) very different evaluations for this hand behind, i would say.

[mike777]

ok, let's assume in the first round, neither 2nt nor any kind of splinter is an option for this parnership. They've agreed that there shouldn't exist a 6-card side suit with such bids.

 

after 2S, 4D IS splinter for them. So i guess Peter would prefer to advance with 4D. then one more question for you, would you keep going on if pd retreats to 4S after 4D?

 

would like to know the percentage of 3S and 4D advocates here :)) very different evaluations for this hand behind, i would say.

This is an issue of captaincy. If you splinter you make opener captain so I strongly disagree with splinter. I want to be captain not opener.

 

Of course many players just make random bids of conventions and do not understand the principle of captaincy.

[pbleighton]

"This is an issue of captaincy. If you splinter you make opener captain so I strongly disagree with splinter. I want to be captain not opener.

 

Of course many players just make random bids of conventions and do not understand the principle of captaincy."

 

This is quite silly.

 

The "principle of captaincy" doesn't tell you which bid is better. This is a judgment call: which feature of the hand do you want to emphasize, the six card suit, or the splinter. This determines which hand you want to be captain. 2H and 4D are both reasonable, unless you play splinters as only minimum GF hands (I don't).

 

Finding pd with 3 hearts (which he would need to raise) when you have 6 is a lot less likely than finding pd with some diamond losers he'd like to dump. If you bid 2H and he bids 3D (not unlikely, given your singleton), you can't splinter. That's the basis of my judgment, but judgments vary :)

 

"would like to know the percentage of 3S and 4D advocates here, very different evaluations for this hand behind, i would say."

 

Not so much, I think. Both show significant slam interest, but allow the final contract to be 4S. Both bids are reasonable, IMO. 4D conveys more information, but 3S allows a potential cue bid of the CA at the 4 level.

 

Peter

[Winstonm]

Myself, I really don't like splintering with this kind of hand...if I bid 4D pard will tend to upgrade too much his Kxx or KJxx of clubs. I've found that slpinters, for me, work out better if I hold cards in the non-splintered suits.

 

With this kind of hand, it is precise controls that will make the difference, as even with a minimum balanced of KQxxx, Kx, xxx, Axx we are gin for 6.

 

So IMO, the best start here is 2H followed by 3S. This sets the suit, and especially if playing something like "serious" 3N, allows precise control exploration without overstating the HC strength of the hand.

 

The way I would bid it, if partner had the magic minimum, would be like this:

1S-2H

2S-3S

4C*-4D**

4H***-4N

5S-6S

* As I play, though others reverse this, is that 4C is not a strong hand.

**1st or 2nd round control

***This is the key. An honor card it my long suit, Ax, Kx, Qx.

 

Hope this is of some value. :)

 

WinstonM

[inquiry]

This is an issue of captaincy. If you splinter you make opener captain so I strongly disagree with splinter. I want to be captain not opener.

 

Of course many players just make random bids of conventions and do not understand the principle of captaincy.

Silly

 

I would bid 4♦ to show...

1- singleton or void in diamonds

2- no club first or second round control

3- slam interest

 

Partner can figure out my hand very accurately after this... good spades, good hearts, diamond control.... this is just another of many examples of this use bid.

 

To read more about this treatment, see my many post in the following thread....

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=38210 with example hands. I assure you after this descriptive 4♦ bid you will land in the right contract, whatever your partner holds.

 

Ben

[mike777]

This is an issue of captaincy. If you splinter you make opener captain so I strongly disagree with splinter. I want to be captain not opener.

 

Of course many players just make random bids of conventions and do not understand the principle of captaincy.

Silly

 

I would bid 4♦ to show...

1- singleton or void in diamonds

2- no club first or second round control

3- slam interest

 

Partner can figure out my hand very accurately after this... good spades, good hearts, diamond control.... this is just another of many examples of this use bid.

 

To read more about this treatment, see my many post in the following thread....

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=38210 with example hands. I assure you after this descriptive 4♦ bid you will land in the right contract, whatever your partner holds.

 

Ben

1)Yes, I play 1s=4d as a minimum G/F hand. Often 7 LTC.

2) Only very mild slam interest, not strong slam interest.

3) I would be surprised to see most experts play 4d denies club control without detailed discussion.

4) After 1s=2h=2s=4d is splinter but again if this denies club control in standard expert bidding, I am surprised.

5) On the other hand if it shows this exact hand type...great...bid it.

[inquiry]

4) After 1s=2h=2s=4d can be splinter but again if this denies club control in standard expert bidding, I am surprised.

After 1S-2H-2S... if you have enough hearts for 2H, enough spades to riase, enough points to still be interested in slam, and a short diamond and first/second round control in clubs, just bid 3S to establish cue-bidding with serious 3NT in play. There is no need for the splinter, see my first response to the original post in the thread i quoted earlier, as that was exactly the hand the fellow held and he SPLINTERED... and my comment was something like, just because you can splinter doesn't mean you should.

 

Is it expert treatment? Not sure, but it is mine, and I have seen experts forgo the splinter with such hands (with the club control too).

 

Ben

[Winstonm]

2- no club first or second round control

 

Ben, I don't understand why the splinter denies a club control. If the minors were reversed, would you play that 4C denis a diamond control as well? Not saying anything is bad, just curious is all.

 

Myself, I use the splinter almost like a SS game try, to help partner evaluate his working cards, so in this auction, I would be more likely to hold: KQxx, AK9xx, x, KJx, as this allows partner to upgrade this hand: AJxxx, Qx, Axxx, Qx. Obviously, it takes more HC for me to splinter, but because it is such a room-consuming bid, I have always felt it needed very precise parameters.

 

Thanks.

 

WinstonM

[Fluffy]

4♦ splinter, this says nothing about ♣s

[Guest Jlall]

my first inclination was to bid 4D over 2S (agree wholeheartedly with 2H). But after thinking it over, I like 3S. This gives pard room to cuebid clubs, and if he cuebids 4D i'll know we're off 2 top clubs for sure. If he cues 4C I can bid 4D and now if he has the HK, he can cuebid that! great...this auction times out very well.

[luke warm]

after 1s:2h:2s i'd bid 3s if i had the ace or king of clubs... since i don't, i'd bid 4d.. partner can now bid on with a club control.. he knows i'm game force with 4 card support and 5+ hearts, stiff/void diamond and no club control... or so it seems to me

[Free]

Now it's between 3♠ and 4♦ imo. I agree with the current bidding, and now I'll choose 4♦ since it really describes my hand: good ♥, ♠ support, singleton ♦, and usually no ♣ control. Opener chooses what's it gonna be.

[helene_t]

I think 4♦ shows this hand (expect that I might have only three spades). What's wrong with making partner captain? You can describe your own hand so that partner can make a decision. If you bid 3♠, there is very little bidding space left.

[the hog]

Playing Serious 3NT, I now cannot conceive of an auction where you would not make bid 3S GF at this juncture. Incididentally, not starting with 2H is is a BIG mistake. Splinter bidders really need to think about the possible tricks available in the H suit.

[whereagles]

I would bid 2♥ + 3♠. This hand is too strong for a splinter, unless you play 6-loser splinters, that is.

 

In fact, the hand is so strong after 1♠ that it only requires us to know ONE thing about pard's hand: does he have club control? Because we know a lot more about the combined potential than pard, it is highly recommendable to take control of the auction. An example would be (playing serious 3NT)

 

1♠ 2♥

2♠ 3♠

4♣ 4NT

etc..

[luke warm]

yes, but why not

 

1♠ : 2♥

2♠ : 4♦

4NT

 

with clubs stopped? on the other hand, opener can just bid 4♠ with duplication in diamonds

[inquiry]

2- no club first or second round control

 

Ben, I don't understand why the splinter denies a club control. If the minors were reversed, would you play that 4C denis a diamond control as well? Not saying anything is bad, just curious is all.

 

Myself, I use the splinter almost like a SS game try, to help partner evaluate his working cards, so in this auction, I would be more likely to hold: KQxx, AK9xx, x, KJx, as this allows partner to upgrade this hand: AJxxx, Qx, Axxx, Qx. Obviously, it takes more HC for me to splinter, but because it is such a room-consuming bid, I have always felt it needed very precise parameters.

 

Thanks.

 

WinstonM

Yes, my rule is farily simple... A splinter in a game forcing situation where I have already shown one suit (as in this case), shows concentration of values in the suit I bid and the suit my splinter raises, shortness in the splinter sut, and no First or second round control in the other suit.

 

So...

 

1S-2H-2S-4C would be a splinter and would deny first or second round control in diamonds. This also means that 1S-2H-2S-4S shows no shortness in either minor, and is a picture bid. Think something like 4-5-2-2. The reason you can do this, is that with 4-5-1-3 with a first or second round club conttrol, you are free to raise to 3S as 100% game force and start a cue-bidding sequence (here I assume you are playing serious 3NT). And note, this 3S bid now promises a minor suit control... without one, you would bid 4S. I wrote a lot on this with many example hands it that link I gave earlier in this thread... just read through that entire post if you want examples and futher explainations.

 

Now as for your KQxx AKxxx x KJx hand, come on, you don't want to be asking that kind of question here. After you bid 4D, are you REALLY going to pass your partners 4S rebid? Of course not. He has at most two hearts, you know you are going to bid again anyway. A game forcing 3S to intiate cue-bidding is the best way to go, or just close your eyes blackwood without telling them your distribution (after 3S). I guess the worse hand your partner can have for his opening 1S and then 2S rebid is... AJxxx x KQJx xxx, so the bidding would be, 1S-2H-2S-3S-4D-4H-4S where 4D denied a C control, showed a D-control, and a very poor hand (I would use serious 3nt after 2S rebid with the hand you showed... and some other "minimum" 2S rebids) (actually, i might just bid 4S instead of 4D with this hand).

 

I have found the use of "precise parameters" for splinters in game forcing situations very useful too. This is why I use this bid to deny control in the other (lets call it the third suit).

 

Ben

[Winstonm]

This also means that 1S-2H-2S-4S shows no shortness in either minor, and is a picture bid.

 

Thanks for the explanation, Ben. It does make sense. I simply had not made that extension of logic as I use the picture bid also to deny first and second round controls in the unbids.

 

So if I understand you correctly, this splinter is exactly like the "picture" bid but you splinter in the one control you do possess. Hmmm. Good point.

 

WinstonM

[Winstonm]

Now as for your KQxx AKxxx x KJx hand, come on, you don't want to be asking that kind of question here. After you bid 4D, are you REALLY going to pass your partners 4S rebid?

 

To answer, Ben, yes I would because of our structure. Pard's 4S bid here could almost be painted on canvas: KQ109x, Kx, KJ10(x), xx(x). There is no safety at the 5-level so pass is mandatory.

 

However, that does not detract from your methods, which are making more and more sense the longer I ponder them. To compare the methods, with KQ109x, Kx, xxx, Axx verses AJxx, AQJxx, x, xxx we could easily miss slam but with your methods it would be a snap - in my mind what makes this so good is that you can emphasize the quality of your heart suit (or minor if 1S-2C/D) and that allows partner to pretty much count tricks.

 

Good treatment. Now to convince partner...this could get ugly, LoL.

 

WinstonM

[whereagles]

yes, but why not

 

1♠ : 2♥

2♠ : 4♦

4NT

 

with clubs stopped? on the other hand, opener can just bid 4♠ with duplication in diamonds

That sequence is not very good because opener has a min and quite probably won't know what to do after the response to RKCB. It is responder who knows what to do with the response to RKCB, so resp should be the one trying to manoever the bidding into him being able to do RKCBing.

 

In other words, by letting opener do RKCB, you relegating the decision to the weaker hand, who rates to underevaluate the combined potential.

[Walddk]

3♠ is the clear winner in my opinion. We play 2/1, right?, so let's take advantage of the system. Soon I will learn where my partner comes from:

 

4♠: I shouldn't have opened 1♠. Was more like a weak 2.

 

3N: Serious, start cue bidding partner. Now 4♦ is very convenient, is it not?

 

4m: Cue bid, not seriously interested in slam.

 

Roland

[Rebound]

3♠ is the clear winner in my opinion. We play 2/1, right?, so let's take advantage of the system. Soon I will learn where my partner comes from:

 

4♠: I shouldn't have opened 1♠. Was more like a weak 2.

 

3N: Serious, start cue bidding partner. Now 4♦ is very convenient, is it not?

 

4m: Cue bid, not seriously interested in slam.

 

Roland

Just my 2 cents - I love the treatment described by Inquiry and if I could be sure partner was playing it too then 4♦ would be the perfect call. However, with my regular partners, playing serious 3NT or not, they will know that a cuebid is practically mandatory after 1♠-2♥-2♠-3♠, and isn't that what you want?