Jacoby 2NT

[dickiegera]

[hv=pc=n&s=sajt862hj97d62ckq&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp2n]133|200[/hv]

 

 

Is South's hand good enough for Jacoby Or should he just bid 4♠

 

OR is there another bid that should be considered?

 

 

Thank you

[digiharuka]

Far away for Jacoby 2NT, and 4♠ may go down.

 

I would choose 1NT or 2♠:

1NT(no matter forcing or not), waiting North or opponent's bid, although is underrated.

2♠, ♣KQ deduct value, fall to simple raise.

 

Maybe the final contract is 3NT. :rolleyes:

====

Consider 4♠ directly if ♥ is doubleton or less.

[hrothgar]

You have an 11 card spade fit and values for at least a limit raise.

 

I'd bid 2N.

If I had to choose something else, I'd bid a 4 card limit raise.

 

4!S is nuts, as is 2!S

[Cyberyeti]

This hand that makes a laydown slam opposite the right 10 count (Qxxxxx, x, Axx, Axx) is too good to do anything other than 2N. If partner shows short hearts you're in business.

[perko90]

If you have a forcing 4-card Limit Raise (like Bergen, or whatever), I'd use that and insist on game if ptr tries to sign-off. If you don't like Bergen, consider Stenberg (2NT = inv+ 4 pc raise).

If you force me to choose between Jacoby and 4♠, I guess I'd take Jacoby, but wouldn't like it.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&e=sajt862hj97d62ckq&d=w&v=0&b=1&a=1sp2n]133|200|

DickieGera 'Is South's hand good enough for Jacoby Or should he just bid 4♠ OR is there another bid that should be considered?'

++++++++++++++++++++

Deal rotated. I rank ...

1. 2N = ART G/F 4+ ♠ (Jacoby).

2. 4♠ = PRE Underbid.

3. 2♣ = "NAT" Consider such bids if you'd prefer to defend rather than watch partner making game/slam :)[/hv]

[Vampyr]

If you have a forcing 4-card Limit Raise (like Bergen, or whatever), I'd use that and insist on game if ptr tries to sign-off. If you don't like Bergen, consider Stenberg (2NT = inv+ 4 pc raise).

If you force me to choose between Jacoby and 4♠, I guess I'd take Jacoby, but wouldn't like it.

 

PArtner had better sign off quickly!

[Huibertus]

Far away for Jacoby 2NT, and 4♠ may go down.

 

I would choose 1NT or 2♠:

1NT(no matter forcing or not), waiting North or opponent's bid, although is underrated.

2♠, ♣KQ deduct value, fall to simple raise.

 

Maybe the final contract is 3NT. :rolleyes:

====

Consider 4♠ directly if ♥ is doubleton or less.

 

Game force does not mean "guaranteed to make game" It means "we are not stopping below game" This hand is FAR too good to do anything else than a GF in spades. See Cyberyeti's very valid comment.

 

Also, once opps start to interfere on this hand you MUST have a forcing pass at the 5-level, that rules out 1NT, 2♠ and 4 ♠

[bluenikki]

[hv=pc=n&s=sajt862hj97d62ckq&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp2n]133|200[/hv]

 

 

Is South's hand good enough for Jacoby Or should he just bid 4♠

 

OR is there another bid that should be considered?

 

 

Thank you

 

In a non-competitive auction, the double jump raise should never have an ace and a king.

 

You could be conservative and bid 3♠ or be aggressive and bid 2NT.

 

Game will be highly likely to succeed if opener has at least two small clubs. Otherwise the duplication will usually do you in unless opener has an extra king.

 

I personally would force to game.

[digiharuka]

Game force does not mean "guaranteed to make game" It means "we are not stopping below game" This hand is FAR too good to do anything else than a GF in spades. See Cyberyeti's very valid comment.

 

Also, once opps start to interfere on this hand you MUST have a forcing pass at the 5-level, that rules out 1NT, 2♠ and 4 ♠

 

If you often open 1♠ with South's hand in the 1st/2nd seat, you must no doubt in using Jacoby 2NT when you find super-fit in partner's opening 1♠. What about if ♣KQ change to ♣KX, do you open 1♠? and does it reasonable to use Jacoby 2NT for super-fit trump?

 

The difference is I seldom open with this ugly 11HCP AND 8LTC, that's why i refuse to use Jacoby 2NT but other way to explore. In South's view the key point is to find North holding at least 3 cards♣ or no duplicate HCP in black suits (♠Q and ♣A).

 

Opponent may interference at 3 level if has long suit even you bid GF bid, and South must PASS at 5-level, because has (probably) 1♣ trick only.

 

====

Extra for possible North's hand(14HCP or less)

♠KQXXX ♥KXX ♦AJXX ♣X - 4♠ down when ♥ opening lead

♠KQXXX ♥KXXX ♦JX ♣AX - 4♠ down

♠KQXXX ♥AKXX ♦QX ♣XX - 4♠ make depends on ♥ break

♠KQXXX ♥XX ♦KJX ♣AXX - 4♠ make when ♦A on-side

====

(edit) If only 2 options from Jacoby 2NT or 4♠, I choose 4♠.

[bluenikki]

If you often open 1♠ with South's hand in the 1st/2nd seat, you must no doubt in using Jacoby 2NT when you find super-fit in partner's opening 1♠. What about if ♣KQ change to ♣KX, do you open 1♠? and does it reasonable to use Jacoby 2NT for super-fit trump?

 

The difference is I seldom open with this ugly 11HCP AND 8LTC, that's why i refuse to use Jacoby 2NT but other way to explore. In South's view the key point is to find North holding at least 3 cards♣ or long red suits.

 

Opponent may interference at 3 level if has long suit even you bid GF bid, and South must PASS at 5-level, because has (probably) 1♣ trick only.

 

It is unplayable to restrict game-forcing raises to hands you would have opened.

 

In old Goren, for example, evaluating a prospective dummy added *many* points. Because failing to do so missed *many* sound games.

 

By the way, it's only 7.5 losers, according to Harrison-Gray, but I still wouldn't open it 1♠. And I would not force to game opposite any other suit opening. So what?

[Cyberyeti]

If you often open 1♠ with South's hand in the 1st/2nd seat, you must no doubt in using Jacoby 2NT when you find super-fit in partner's opening 1♠. What about if ♣KQ change to ♣KX, do you open 1♠? and does it reasonable to use Jacoby 2NT for super-fit trump?

 

The difference is I seldom open with this ugly 11HCP AND 8LTC, that's why i refuse to use Jacoby 2NT but other way to explore. In South's view the key point is to find North holding at least 3 cards♣ or no duplicate HCP in black suits (♠Q and ♣A).

 

Opponent may interference at 3 level if has long suit even you bid GF bid, and South must PASS at 5-level, because has (probably) 1♣ trick only.

 

====

Extra for possible North's hand(14HCP or less)

♠KQXXX ♥KXX ♦AJXX ♣X - 4♠ down when ♥ opening lead

♠KQXXX ♥KXXX ♦JX ♣AX - 4♠ down

♠KQXXX ♥AKXX ♦QX ♣XX - 4♠ make depends on ♥ break

♠KQXXX ♥XX ♦KJX ♣AXX - 4♠ make when ♦A on-side

====

(edit) If only 2 options from Jacoby 2NT or 4♠, I choose 4♠.

 

You are cherry picking massively here, something as bad as KQxxx, x, xxx, AJxx will make 4, partner will be 5233 a lot of the time (for you, we open 1N on this) and he needs 2 cover cards in the side suits to make game. If partner is a little better you can be making a slam very easily and won't be bidding it. While a stiff club can happen, I would discount hands with a singleton opposite either minor or two doubletons for typical examples.

[Huibertus]

If you often open 1♠ with South's hand in the 1st/2nd seat, you must no doubt in using Jacoby 2NT when you find super-fit in partner's opening 1♠.

 

No I don't like Jacoby for a super fit. However, lacking any other bid for a super bid it is a lot better then 1NT or 2, 3 or 4 ♠ on THIS hand.

 

This topic is not about the question what to open with the south hand, it is about what to respond to a 1♠ opening.

 

However, I do agree with the underlying message that opening + opening is not enough for game is you open roughly all 11HCP 5 cards major, but it's just off topic.

 

Yes, responding with this hand, of course 4 ♠ might go down. But no way we are stopping below game with a known 6-5 fit and 10/11 HCP hands partner can have that would provide a cold slam. And for that reason, again, you MUST set up a forcing pass situation in case opps bid at the 5 level too. So Jacoby 2NT simply is the only bid that makes sense.

 

Apart from that, constructing example hands to show game can go down, it indeed helps to almost mirror short and longer suits in both hands like you do on the first 4 hands, but the opposite of course is more likely, like the 10HCP count Cyberyeti gave earlier.

[miamijd]

It's not much of a GF, in that it has 8 losers. The fifth and sixth trump and the Js are waste; the Jh is probably waste; the Qc may well be waste. Still, you don't want to stop below 4S.

 

In standard, it's a bit strong for a 4S bid (I don't want to miss slam when partner has a great hand), so I would overbid just slightly with 2NT Jacoby and then try as hard as I can to put the brakes on after that.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[bluenikki]

It's not much of a GF, in that it has 8 losers. The fifth and sixth trump and the Js are waste; the Jh is probably waste; the Qc may well be waste. Still, you don't want to stop below 4S.

 

In standard, it's a bit strong for a 4S bid (I don't want to miss slam when partner has a great hand), so I would overbid just slightly with 2NT Jacoby and then try as hard as I can to put the brakes on after that.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

The fifth and sixth trump *usually* turn out to be waste.

 

But paying throw-ins are available much more often with 5-6 fits than with 5-4.

[crapdown4]

The fifth and sixth trump *usually* turn out to be waste.

 

But paying throw-ins are available much more often with 5-6 fits than with 5-4.

 

OK, first of all, there is no "right" bid on this hand. It's too good for 4S and too weak for Jacoby 2NT. If you cook up some kind of temporizing bid like 2C, then fourth hand might preempt you out of your shorts and you'll never be able to show how strong your spades are.

 

Because there is definitely a danger of preemptive action by fourth hand--he's short in spades, after all, and if pard has a minimum he might have considerable strength--I vote for the least lie--4S.

[Wolfbag]

Far too good for 4S - I'm fine with 2NT but Jacoby can be played any number of ways - personally I play it as forcing to game with possible slam interest - but the next stage would be a cue-bidding sequence (rather than suit showing) - cue bids to show 1st round controls up the line (including KS) - and my next intended bid probably 3S to show AS and deny other 1st round controls - there's a whole range of hands I would expect to find opposite - from slam to the extremely unlikely 4S going off - partner MUST have some kind of shape and I would expect to be extremely unfortunate to go off in 4S

[bluenikki]

Far too good for 4S - I'm fine with 2NT but Jacoby can be played any number of ways - personally I play it as forcing to game with possible slam interest - but the next stage would be a cue-bidding sequence (rather than suit showing) - cue bids to show 1st round controls up the line (including KS) - and my next intended bid probably 3S to show AS and deny other 1st round controls - there's a whole range of hands I would expect to find opposite - from slam to the extremely unlikely 4S going off - partner MUST have some kind of shape and I would expect to be extremely unfortunate to go off in 4S

 

If you call it extremely unlikely for opener to hold doubleton AJ in clubs, then OK. But most such hands will have no play for 10 tricks.

 

Personally, I would call it merely unlikely.

[Cyberyeti]

If you call it extremely unlikely for opener to hold doubleton AJ in clubs, then OK. But most such hands will have no play for 10 tricks.

 

Personally, I would call it merely unlikely.

 

I would suggest off the top of my head it's <1%, if I get bored I might do the calculations, but it's one specific case of the doubletons from 11 cards, and doubleton is not maximally likely anyway, plus hands like Qxxxxx, x, AKxx, AJ make 6 anyway (and Qxxxxx, x, xxxx, AJ while nowhere near an opening bid is solid for 4, it's all about the shape.

[dickiegera]

I would suggest off the top of my head it's <1%, if I get bored I might do the calculations, but it's one specific case of the doubletons from 11 cards, and doubleton is not maximally likely anyway, plus hands like Qxxxxx, x, AKxx, AJ make 6 anyway (and Qxxxxx, x, xxxx, AJ while nowhere near an opening bid is solid for 4, it's all about the shape.

 

 

 

North's hand[hv=pc=n&s=shdc&n=skq9743hqdakj97cj]133|200[/hv]

[miamijd]

OK, first of all, there is no "right" bid on this hand. It's too good for 4S and too weak for Jacoby 2NT. If you cook up some kind of temporizing bid like 2C, then fourth hand might preempt you out of your shorts and you'll never be able to show how strong your spades are.

 

Because there is definitely a danger of preemptive action by fourth hand--he's short in spades, after all, and if pard has a minimum he might have considerable strength--I vote for the least lie--4S.

 

First, stop worrying about what the opponents are going to do. The first one didn't overcall; the second one will need to bid over a 2NT call; you have the master suit, and you are going to bid to 4S no matter what they do.

 

Second, a temporzing bid is silly with this hand. It will give partner an absolutely wrong idea of what you have.

 

Finally, the trouble with 4S comes when partner has a good hand. What if he has:

 

Kxxxx A Axx AJxx

 

You will play an easy grand in 4S.

 

There isn't a lot of risk in bidding 2NT. You will then show a minimum at every opportunity. Your partner isn't going to go hog-wild unless he has a rock-crusher.

 

This ties in with Jeff Meckstroth's advice to me some 35 years ago: at your first turn, when faced with having to overbid slightly or underbid slightly, always choose the overbid. It's easy enough to slow things down later on. It's NOT easy to speed them up. (Of course, it helps when you can play them like Jeff does :).

 

Cheers,

Mike

[FelicityR]

4♠ is a LUDICROUS bid because it is 95% of the time a stop bid.

 

If you were opening the bidding instead of partner with 1♠, your partner would be bidding 2NT here, n'est-ce pas?

 

Both Cyberyeti and Mike (miamijd) are right. Bid 2NT and then put the brakes on. Why have Jacoby 2NT as a convention and then not use it?

 

In my humble opinion, there is nothing more to discuss on this thread :)

[hrothgar]

FWIW, I threw together a quick dealer script

 

You can run this on http://dealergib1.bridgebase.com/tools/dealer/dealer.php.

 

Even if you're playing relatively weak openings, this hand is making 4S+ 71% of the time

 

I ran a variant of the same script in which N/S is constrained to make 9 or fewer tricks in Spades and checked how many tricks E/W would expect to score in hearts if this were their longest fit. Their scoring 10+ tricks close to half the time

 

 

 

predeal south SAJT862,HJ97,D62,CKQ

 

opening_strength =

 

hcp(north) >= 11

and cccc(north) >= 1050

 

one_spade =

 

spades(north) >= 5 and

hearts(north) <= spades(north)

 

and

 

not

 

(

shape(north, any 5332) and

hcp(north) >= 14 and

hcp(north) <= 16

)

 

and not

 

(

shape(north, any 5332) and

hcp(north) >= 19

)

 

 

 

produce 500

 

condition one_spade and

opening_strength and

hearts(east) + hearts(west) >= clubs(east) + clubs(west) and

hearts(east) + hearts(west) >= diamonds(east) + diamonds(west) and

tricks(north, spades) < 10

 

action

 

# print(north,south)

 

#frequency "Spades" (tricks (north, spades), 0, 13)

 

frequency "Hearts" (tricks (east, hearts), 0, 13)

[doccdl]

With a regular partner it is 2NT and with a strange unknown partners it is 4.♠

[Zelandakh]

This ties in with Jeff Meckstroth's advice to me some 35 years ago: at your first turn, when faced with having to overbid slightly or underbid slightly, always choose the overbid. It's easy enough to slow things down later on. It's NOT easy to speed them up. (Of course, it helps when you can play them like Jeff does :).

I am a little interested as to the context of JM's comment here. My experience is that this is only true when we have a fit and that for hands without a fit it is often a good idea to be cautious until a fit is found and then to make an energetic bid to show the fit. On this hand I am kind of shocked that so many seem to see a GF raise as an overbid. Switch the spades and the diamonds though and I am intrigued if you would now suggest the overbid of a GF 2♦ response. I could be wrong but I suggest not; which rather proves the point that most posters only pull out these tips when they match what they want to do anyway, such as the classic "I follow Hamman's advice and bid 3NT". It does not matter whether BH himself would have made that call, nor in this case whether JM would have bid 2NT/2♦, only that it provides additional justification for the poster's personal position. Curiously, in a RM Precision context, a 4♠ response would make much more sense than for 2 over 1 due to the limited openings. Are you 100% sure what JM would call if ER had opened 1♠?