Syl20 Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 [hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxxhkqxdaxxcakxxx&s=saxhajxxxxdkxxcqx]133|200|Scoring: doesn't matter[/hv] How do you bid with your strong club system after South opens 1♥ (5+♥, 11-15H) ?Please explain all the bids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Straight from the Groetheim - Sontag book 1♥ - 1NT gf2♣ maximum - 2♦ relay2♠ 1-suiter - 2NT 6-shooter relay3♣ 6322 - 3♦ zoom3♠ 2632 - Now my own slam system takes over - 4♣4♠ - 4NT5♦ - 5NT6♦ - 7♥ 4♣: RKC in longest suit (♥), in ♦♣♠ would be 4♥♠NT resp., 3NT to play and 4♦ break 4♠: 2 no Q4NT: Spiral scan, forcing to 6♥ (only ask after BW that is not slamforcing is asking for the trump Q)5♦: ♦K not ♣K Now:5♥ asks for ♠K but does not help us5♠ asks for ♦Q but does not help either5NT asks for ♣Q6♦ = yes but not ♠Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMetsch Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 How about: 1♥ - 2♣2NT (1) - 3♥ (2)3♠ (3) - 4♣ (3)4♦ (3) - 5♣ (4)5NT (5) - 7♥ (1) = MAX, 1-suiter(2) = stronger than 4♥(3) = CUE(4) = CUE, so AK♣, 3 keycards (turbo: 4NT would be 2)(5) = check for trump queen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: doesn't matter ♠ xx ♥ KQx ♦ Axx ♣ AKxxx ♠ Ax ♥ AJxxxx ♦ Kxx ♣ Qx How do you bid with your strong club system after South opens 1♥ (5+♥, 11-15H) ?Please explain all the bids.playing our variation of Precision1♥ 11-15 5+♥3♣ 16+ 5+ ♣3♥ 6 hearts4♠ Q supporting H as trumps 5♣ A♣5♥ -- denies A♦6♣ K♣6♦ K♦7♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 playing our variation of Precision1♥ 11-15 5+♥3♣ 16+ 5+ ♣3♥ 6 hearts4♠ Q supporting H as trumps 5♣ A♣5♥ -- denies A♦6♣ K♣6♦ K♦7♥ Not sure I understand this. Who bids 4♠ over 3♥? If North, how can he respond 5♣ at the same time? Maybe it's me, please explain. Besides, your auction looks very nice from then on, but isn't it North who bids 7♥? How does he know about ♣Q? If South has AxAJxxxxKxxxx you can't even make 6 on a spade lead. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syl20 Posted June 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 This hand is very interesting because the final contract depends on the queen(s) held by opener. You said you are not interested by ♦Q but in fact you are if you wish to bid 7NT when opener has Q of ♣ and ♦ for 15 Hcp. To Gerben: Here are some questions showing my interest: 1- When the answer to your RKCB is 3/0 or 4/1 keys, how do you then differentiate the queen ask from the spiral scan ask ? Or do you just add the Q♥ as an honour to show or deny ? 2- How do you proceed for BW when you are still unsure of the suit you will play in, for instance, when it depends on the holdings ?What if you don't have a fit ? 3- Do you mean that when you RKCB for ♥ then every bid other than ♥ (and other than NT ?) will be a spiral ask ? 4- Is it really compulsory to play at least the slam when you begin Spiral scans ? This means that you only use Spiral scans when you hold all the aces ? 5- Can't you begin them to seak for a peticular honour and stop in 5♥ in case you don't like what you hear ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 We open this 1♦ to show ♥s... 1♦ - 1♥ (4+♥ - relay inv+)2♦ - 2♥ (max, singlesuited 6+♥ - relay GF)2♠ - 2NT (short ♠ or 3-6-2-2 or 2-6-3-2 - relay)3♣ - 3♦ (3-6-2-2 or 2-6-3-2 - relay)3♥ - 3♠ (2-6-3-2 - relay)4♥ - 4♠ (9 slampoints - relay)5♠ - 5NT (1/2 tophonors ♠, ♣ and ♦, 1 tophonour ♥ - relay)6♣ - 6♦ (exactly 1 tophonour ♦ - relay)6♥ - 7♥ (exactly 1 tophonour ♠) Playing our previous system it's quite similar: 1♥ - 1NT (10-15 5+♥ - relay inv+)2♥ - 2♠ (max, singlesuited 6+♥ - relay GF)...the rest is very similar, just 1 step higher... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 1- When the answer to your RKCB is 3/0 or 4/1 keys, how do you then differentiate the queen ask from the spiral scan ask ? Or do you just add the Q♥ as an honour to show or deny ? 2- How do you proceed for BW when you are still unsure of the suit you will play in, for instance, when it depends on the holdings ?What if you don't have a fit ? 3- Do you mean that when you RKCB for ♥ then every bid other than ♥ (and other than NT ?) will be a spiral ask ? 4- Is it really compulsory to play at least the slam when you begin Spiral scans ? This means that you only use Spiral scans when you hold all the aces ? 5- Can't you begin them to seak for a peticular honour and stop in 5♥ in case you don't like what you hear ? 1. The next step asks for the Queen. This is not slam forcing. In this case there are only two asking bids, one for "Queen" and one for the cheapest bid. 2. On the small slam level this may be problematic, grand slams are always to play. Small slams are to play if you at least raise partner. For example on this hand you could have bid 6 in whatever on the ace ask with an appropriate hand. 3. After the RKC all bids except ♥ bids and 6NT as long as you do not raise partner or jump. If slam is guaranteed by asking for more honors than the Trump Queen below 5♥ then 5♥ is also spiral scan. 4. Yes, but also possible to find alternative slams (6♥ or 6NT) 5. Nope. But if you are so unsure about slam why are you so high? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 [hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxxhkqxdaxxcakxxx&s=saxhajxxxxdkxxcqx]133|200|Scoring: doesn't matter[/hv] How do you bid with your strong club system after South opens 1♥ (5+♥, 11-15H) ?Please explain all the bids. Free beat me too it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 My go: 1H 2C (GF relay 2S (hearts single suited) 2NT (relay)3C (High shortage or 6322 low/med length) 3D (relay)3H (2632 or 2623) 3S (relay)4C (2632) 4D (relay)5C (9 slam points, A= 3, K = 2, Q = 1) 5D (relay)6D (1/2 top honours in all suits outside trumps, 1 top in trumps) 6H (relay)6S (1 in diamonds) 7H I guess our system isn't as good as Free/Hrothgar's since we were stuck if the answer to the spiral scan wasn't enough to bid a grand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 My go: 1H 2C (GF relay 2S (hearts single suited) 2NT (relay)3C (High shortage or 6322 low/med length) 3D (relay)3H (2632 or 2623) 3S (relay)4C (2632) 4D (relay)5C (9 slam points, A= 3, K = 2, Q = 1) 5D (relay)6D (1/2 top honours in all suits outside trumps, 1 top in trumps) 6H (relay)6S (1 in diamonds) 7H I guess our system isn't as good as Free/Hrothgar's since we were stuck if the answer to the spiral scan wasn't enough to bid a grand How do you know partner hasn't got ♠KQ instead of ♠A? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Heres a natural auction just to compare with all artificial auctions... 1H 2C(promising 5 in context of 1H-2N=nat forcing)2H 3H3S 4C4D 4N5H 5N7H(based on the club queen, huge card. If pard had weak clubs he would have bid 3N over 3S to try and get you to cue the club king). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: doesn't matter ♠ xx ♥ KQx ♦ Axx ♣ AKxxx ♠ Ax ♥ AJxxxx ♦ Kxx ♣ Qx 1♥ 2♣(1)2♥(2) 4♣(3)4♠(4) 5♣(5)5♦(6) 5NT(7)6♣(8) 6♦(9)7♦(10) 7♥(11)P (1) 5+C, guarantees rebid but not GF(2) Does not promise extra length or strength (suit quality not quite good enough for 3♥)(3) Good clubs and heart support--suggests better than minimum game values, denies a splinter.(4) Kickback(5) (0 or) 3 Keycards(6) Q♥?(7) Yes, and K♣, no K♦(8) K♠? (Spiral asks take precedence over alternative contracts below 6 of our suit)(9) No(10) Q♦? (6♠ asks for Q♣; 6♥, 6NT and 7♣ to play)(11) No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: doesn't matter ♠ xx ♥ KQx ♦ Axx ♣ AKxxx ♠ Ax ♥ AJxxxx ♦ Kxx ♣ Qx How do you bid with your strong club system after South opens 1♥ (5+♥, 11-15H) ?Please explain all the bids.2h : 2nt3h : 3s4d : 5d5s : 7h 2h=11-16, 6+2nt=ogust3h=good hand (14-16), one top honor3s=asking4d=Ax(x)5d=asking5s=Kx(x) or stiff (has to be king else not enough for good hand response) opener has shown the ♠A, ♥A, ♦K, but not the ♠A,K or the ♦K,Q.. so for his 'good hand' bid he must have the ♣Q with one or both of the major suit jacks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 actually i think bbo advanced 2/1 will do the job quite well here 1h : 2c2h : 3h3s : 4c - 3s is a cue : 4c shows serious slam interest with cue4d : 4nt - 4d is cue, since lttc is too taxing for me : he needs to know about the spades (king or ace?)5h : 7h not sure if he'd bid 7h here, but certainly can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 he doesnt know if his pard has a minor suit queen or not. Only the guy with the club queen can appreciate it that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 that's true... of all the auctions given, i much prefer mine... think maybe i'm a little prejudiced? heheh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 [hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxxhkqxdaxxcakxxx&s=saxhajxxxxdkxxcqx]133|200|Scoring: doesn't matter[/hv] Please explain all the bids. 1♥ (1) 2♣ (2)2♦ (3) 3♥ (4)3♠ (5) 3NT (6)4♣ (7) 4NT (8)5♥ (9) 7♥ (10) or 5♠ 1 - normal 1H opening, no problem2 - GF with clubs, or drury or bal 11+ NT3 - more than minimum opening hand4 - Sets trumps as hearts, shows real clubs, and initiates possible slam try5 - Cue-bid first or second round control6 - Serious 3NT7 - A, K or Q of clubs (do not cuebid singleton or void in partners suit)8 - Time to take control, blackwood9 - two key cards, no heart queen10 - partner's 2♦ showed more than a minimum, I know about the two aces and the club queen. But must have more to show the better than min. Queen of spades or queen of diamonds would not be enough. In fact, king of one of those suits is barely enough and would probably need a sixth heart with A, AJ, K, Q. I can bid 5♠ to investigate further. With a sixth heart (unannounced) and the diamnond queen, partner would bid 7♥ over such a bid anyway. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 that's true... of all the auctions given, i much prefer mine... think maybe i'm a little prejudiced? heheh given that you prefer this auction to one where relay asker knows RR's precise shape and all of his top controls I'd say that you qualify as VERY prejudiced... Relay has its pluses and minuses, but its rarely beat identifying slams during uncontested auction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 How about this? 1H-2C 2H-3H4C*4D4S-4N5H-7H or 1H-2C2H-3H3S-4C4D-4H5C-5N6H-7H I prefer the first, and as I play 4C does not deny a spade control. Years ago when I played Power Precision as I remember it incorporated 2/1 game force. I believe in slam investigations, secondary support for the long non-trump suit can be critical, hence for years I have played this secondary support as "filler" cards and not specifically the Ace or King. The south hand obviously can have some slam aspirations in this auction, but it requires partner to hold either excellent high cards or a good club suit. Note on this hand, if partner held only the K of spades and no diamond control, 6 hearts would be excellent, yet no one can get real excited until the club situation is determined. WinstonM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 that's true... of all the auctions given, i much prefer mine... think maybe i'm a little prejudiced? heheh given that you prefer this auction to one where relay asker knows RR's precise shape and all of his top controls I'd say that you qualify as VERY prejudiced... Relay has its pluses and minuses, but its rarely beat identifying slams during uncontested auction... but i do know his controls.. even the ♣Q... i also know he has 6 hearts, tho you're right about the exact dist.. however, i know he has 2+ spades, 2+ diamonds... as for exact dist, i know he has no 4 card suit, so he's 3631, 2632, 3622, or 2623 with the ♠A, ♥A, and ♦K but you're right, i am prejudiced.. i'll work on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 There is no doubt relay systems are best in slam auctions. I think a natural system should get the job done though on this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 7H(based on the club queen, huge card. If pard had weak clubs he would have bid 3N over 3S to try and get you to cue the club king). Justin, an idea I picked up years ago from Mike Lawrence's writings and it fits well with the concept of 2/1 on almost always 5-card suits is that a cue bid by opener in responder's suit is like "secondary support", Qxx, Qx, KQx, something in that order. If you have this agreement, the club Q is no longer a "guess" for either partner. It has served me well in slam bidding. WinstonM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Fourrière Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 My system might bid: 1♥ 2♣2N 3♣3♦ 3♥4♦ 4♠5♦ 5♠6♣ 7♥ 1♥: normal, but never 5332, hence a 2N rebid is free2♣: clubs or balanced, but not invitational with long clubs (would bid 3♣), hence a 3♣ rebid is free2N: one-suiter3♣: balanced GF relay (3♥ would be NF, usually balanced but sometimes with a singleton and five good clubs (otherwise answer 1N), and other bids would suggest real clubs)3♦: no shortness (won't be able to know whether opener has three clubs)3♥: forcing, and a bit lazy, since 3♠ could be defined as showing good clubs4♦: positive with internal strength in diamonds, usually the King (K>AQ>QJ), since clubs haven't been emphasized enough; denies both the ♠K and the ♣K4♠: BW5♦: two keys without the ♥Q, which is why an unsupported ace shouldn't be cue-bid IMO (the ♠A was bound to be useful anyway and is now known, and a slam which has twelve tricks if the opponents fail to cash their AK is about average)5♠: GSF6♣: can't show the King For those who play strong jump shifts, the auction could start 1♥ 3♣ 4♣... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 I never played a strong ♣ system, but I guess if I did 2/1 would be GF and everything would be the same: S:1♥N:2♣ (NAT Gf)S:2♥ (6+♥)N:3♥ (Sets ♥ as trump)S:3♠ cueN:4♣ cueS:4♦ cueN:4NT RCKBS:5♥ 2 without QN:6♣ asks about ♣ holdingS:6♦ second round controlN:7♥ arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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