Minor vs. Major response

[arepo24]

When does one respond with a very good 5 card minor over a very good 4 card major in the suit that my partner bid with an 11 point hand?

Do I support my partner's major bid first or mention the longer minor suit first then switch to the major?

Thank you

[Stephen Tu]

To some extent it depends on what kind of system you are playing. With a very good minor, 11 hcp & 4 cd major support, this is worth a GF, and good suits should be mentioned, so you should 2/1 then support partner's major. If you were say 4225, with no control in the reds, this might be a "picture bid" 4S jump 2nd round if playing 2/1 GF. If you weren't playing 2/1 GF you might not have a choice other than 4S on 2nd round, depending on exact agreements.

 

If you have shortness somewhere, 4315 e.g. you have a choice between splintering immediately vs showing your suit and possibly being able to splinter later if partner bids 2M/2nt. The better your suit the more you should want to bid it.

 

4225 might also Jacoby 2nt when the 5 cd suit is not great, and some of the more terrible 11s with short suit quacks might devalue into a limit raise, whatever your LR bid is.

[arepo24]

Thanks for your suggestions. I don't play 2/1 with my partner and our agreement for Jacoby 2nt is 13+ points not 11.

My first thought is still to support my partner's major first with a jump to 3 of my major and then see what happens.

[Stephen Tu]

If 3M is a limit raise and NF, most 11s with a great suit are simply too strong. You'll find partner passing when you want to be in game. It would have to be a bad suit with QJs in your doubletons to bid just a limit raise. Better to FG, you should be counting some points for the useful shape. 9 cd fit and a good side suit is definitely worth at least 3 extra points most of the time. Will game always make opposite hands that pass a limit raise, no, but it'll make more often than not.

 

 

[arepo24]

If 3M is a limit raise and NF, most 11s with a great suit are simply too strong. You'll find partner passing when you want to be in game. It would have to be a bad suit with QJs in your doubletons to bid just a limit raise. Better to FG, you should be counting some points for the useful shape. 9 cd fit and a good side suit is definitely worth at least 3 extra points most of the time. Will game always make opposite hands that pass a limit raise, no, but it'll make more often than not.

Thank you for your interesting remarks Stephen.

[apollo1201]

Thank you for your interesting remarks Stephen.

It is often the case with his posts😉

But unless you open flat 10 or 11-counts, your 11 HCPs + side-suit + 4-cd fit will often produce game. Describing where your assets are will also help partner assess potential for slam (if hands fit well or not when he has extras) or decide what to do in the unlikely event opponents compete.

[aawk]

First a minor followed by a major as response shows 5+/4 being at least game forcing is a good agreement to make.

[smerriman]

First a minor followed by a major as response shows 5+/4 being at least game forcing is a good agreement to make.

If you don't play 2/1 then a new suit at the 2 level followed by a jump raise of the major is usually the only way to show an invitational hand with 3 card support, so can't be game forcing.

[sfi]

First a minor followed by a major as response shows 5+/4 being at least game forcing is a good agreement to make.

You may have missed that the four-card major is in the suit partner opened. If it weren't, you make a good point.

 

I'm a big fan of establishing the good trump fit early. You would be hard pressed to find an 11 count with four-card support and a side five-card suit I would not force to game with. So I would just use my way to show a game-forcing raise on this hand.

[aawk]

You may have missed that the four-card major is in the suit partner opened. If it weren't, you make a good point.

 

 

Yes I missed that.

[nekthen]

Short answer is never.

Assuming you are playing 5 card majors, you have found your 9 card fit. You could agree that 3m shows this hand type.

As mentioned any hand with 11 hcp, 4 card support and a 5 card suit is a 7 loser hand or better and you want to force to game. You can use splinter or Jacoby as appropriate

Most people will expect only 3 card support when partner starts off with 2m and then supports partner, which may result in missed slams

[SelfGovern]

When does one respond with a very good 5 card minor over a very good 4 card major in the suit that my partner bid with an 11 point hand?

Do I support my partner's major bid first or mention the longer minor suit first then switch to the major?

Thank you

 

Let me suggest you post an actual auction an hand next time. Your question as phrased seems to have led people to respond to at least two different questions, which means the quality of the answers is highly subject to how closely the question they were answering tracks the question you were asking.

 

It's also important to tell us what bidding system you're using. The answer will be different for Standard American vs. 2/1 vs. Acol vs. whatever.

 

 

What I think you were asking is, "In Standard American, if partner opens one of a major. I have a good five-card minor, four card support for partner's suit, and 11 points. What should I bid?"

 

And even that question is ambiguous, because there are bad 11-point hands (Jxxx, QJ, QJ, KJxxx), good 11-point hands (Kxxx, xx, xx, AKJxx), and incredible 11-point hands (KTxx, x, Kxxx, KQTxx).

 

Part of the reason you should post your hand and the auction is so that people can help you understand why your 11-point hand is better or worse than another, or an average 11-point hand.

 

NOW -- with that out of the way:

0. When you have a hand worth a single bid (i.e., 6-9) or invite (10-bad 12), it's important that you show partner the fit as soon as possible in your bidding structure.

1. It's important to have in your system a bid to show a limit raise (that is, invitational) hand with four-card trump support. In Standard American, that's 1!H - 3!H, or 1!S - 3!S. Alternately, many 2/1 players use Bergen raises, where 3!D shows 4-card support and an invitational hand.

2. If you only have three-card support, you make a temporizing bid and then support partner's suit (in standard American that could be 1!H - 1!S; (whatever) - 3!H, or, 1!H - 2!C; 2!H - 3!H, for instance.

3. If your 4-card support hand has 11 HCP and evaluates to an opening hand in support of partner's suit (say, KTxx, x, Kxx, KQTxx), then you need to have a bid to show that. Even Standard American has adopted the 2NT forcing raise bid often called Jacoby 2NT. You should too, regardless of whether you're 2/1 or Standard American. Make sure you read a complete discussion of the convention, so that you know what opener's rebid is supposed to be, and how you have sensible auctions both ending in game, as well as exploring slam. (Note: Many players use splinters (double jump shift) to show a singleton in a side suit, four-card support, and an opening hand in support like the example hand in this paragraph. If you don't use splinters, then Jacoby 2NT is a reasonable substitute.)

 

An additional note: a partnership needs to be in agreement on what kind of hands are opening hands. If your partner regularly opens 1H on a 3532 11-count, then you will need to make sure you increase your requirements for a limit raise and game-forcing sequence by about a queen -- that is, make sure that you have a good 13 or 14 before you force to game unless partner shows extras.