Extended Jacoby Tranfers?

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=saq84h83dakq108c94]133|100|Scoring: IMP

I'm not too big on systemic inventions because everyone it seems has a better way. But in an uncontested auction, when partner opens 1N, this hand for me becomes awkward. It occurred to me that one might use Jacoby Transfer to solve the problem - transfer to spades and then rebid 4D with 4/5 and rebid 3D when 5/4 or 5/5. Further thinking showed that this same treatment could be used instead on 4441 slam try patterns by transferring into a 4-card major and then jumping to the appropreate suit at the 4-level. This would allow the direct jump (if using 4 suit txs) to 3H/S as 3154 pattern. Is there anything in print on this Canape' approach to Jacoby?

 

Thanks.[/hv]

 

WinstonM

[luke warm]

not that i know of... this is one reason i like 2 way stayman... responder can easily find the slam, if it's there

[Walddk]

The simple way to do it is to transfer to diamonds (2NT) and then bid spades, if your methods allow that.

 

1N - 2N

3♦ - 3♠

 

To some this sets diamonds and shows a singleton spade, and that's no good of course. If that is the case I suggest

 

1NT - 2♣

2red - 3♦

 

That is forcing with a longer diamond suit than the 4-card major you now (by inference) have shown. Any or both if the response is 2♦, spades if opener responds 2♥.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

Have never seen this idea. It may get a little complicated, and I think a natural approach (stayman then diamonds) does the job just fine.

[Winstonm]

This probably makes more sense with the 4441 patterns.

 

I don't want to get too bogged down into technicalities here, but this seems a fairly logical approach to incorporate into 4-suit tranfers that allows both 1354 patterns and 4441 patterns to be bid. 3145 by bidding either fragment or singleton immediately at the 3-level, your choice.

 

There are only two 4441 patterns that contain a single major:

 

4144-trx to spades, follow with 4H.

1444-trx to hearts, follow with 3S

4441-trx to hearts, follow with 4C

4414- trx to spades, follow with 4D

 

Note: With these being defined as slam try hands, Super Fit bids settle the issue in the 4/4 as well.

 

Just thinking out loud, here. :blink:

 

WinstonM

[reisig]

If you xfer to ♦s and bid 3♠ later ...to me that shows 6+♦ and 0-1♠.

Why not 2♣ and then 3♦ over whatever opener bids? Then can bid 4♠ over 3N or 3♠ over 3♥.

[Winstonm]

Why not 2♣ and then 3♦ over whatever opener bids? Then can bid 4♠ over 3N or 3♠ over 3♥.

 

Reason for me is we use 1N-2C-2any-3C/3D as sign offs. Old fashioned, but it fits our system and we are old, LoL.

 

1N-2S is a relay to 2N after which responder has clarifications of hand types.

 

WinstonM

[Guest Jlall]

your idea is fine winston, the question is cost vs gain. You are losing the ability to transfer and splinter, and you are gaining the ability to show 4441 SLAMMISH hands (it would be a much bigger gain if you could show game going+ but not possible since you go beyond 3N).

[Winstonm]

Some input on benefit?

 

While I am on this subject, pard and I developed a relay-style method of bidding over 1N when holding slam-interest hands. I won't bore you with details, but an integral part of the method is to locate the first 4/4 fit available, either a minor or a major, when holding a quantitative raise type hand.

 

As an example, with AQxx, xx, KQxx, KQxx we could reach any of the following contracts: 4N (ugh), 5C, 5D, 6C, 6D, 6S, 6N. The disadvantage is that with two 4-card fits, we cannot prefer the major contract over the minor; however, we are of the opinion that - especially at imps - getting to the minor slams instead of being compelled to use the old blunderbuss bid of quantitative 4N and only having the choice (usually) of 4N/6N is worth the small sacrifice of neglecting the occassional 4/4 major fit.

 

Comments, please? Thanks again in advance.

 

WinstonM

[Elianna]

I'm amazed that someone lets you score up those contracts you mentioned (since you have fourteen cards! :blink:)

[Winstonm]

I'm amazed that someone lets you score up those contracts you mentioned (since you have fourteen cards!

 

Hey, when you get to our age you have to have some extras for you bidding! :lol: ROFLOL.

 

You are right: Make that, AQxx, xx, KQxx, KQx and with that we have the options of reaching: 4N, 5D, 6D but not 6S when 4/4, 6S when not 4/4 D/S, or 6N.

 

Sheesh, can't get away with anything with you guys. :blink:

 

WinstonM

[Elianna]

I was confused by something you said: You play four suit transfers, right? Then why do you need 1N-2c; 2M-3m to be a sign off? Can't you just transfer into the minor and sign off?

 

Also, if you modified the original hand to give yourself a singleton heart so you have AQxx x KQxx KQxx, I'm assuming that your original statement would be true, you "could reach any of the following contracts: 4N (ugh), 5C, 5D, 6C, 6D, 6S, 6N" and that your second statement, that you miss 6S for 6m whenever partner has 4/4 in spades and a minor is true is also correct.

 

Is that what you wished comment on? If so, I don't know what to say. Your system sounds somewhat workable, but definitely not for mps. I also would be curious what contract you end up in when partner (the NT opener) has xxxx KQJx AJx Ax (when you have the above hand, of course).

[Winstonm]

I was confused by something you said: You play four suit transfers, right?

 

Sorry to be confusing - I confuse my partner at times, too.

 

But no, we do not play 4-suit transfers; basically, we took a bunch of concepts and put them together. Direct bids, such as 3C, 3D, 3H, 3S are the same or similar to what most use when playing 4-suit transfers. We use 2S, not as a tranfer, but as a relay to 2N after which many sequences start, all from 3H on to 3N are then different types of slam tries. One of those allows us to find the cheapest/first 4/4 fit with a quantitative type raise.

 

To answer your question, with xxxx, KQJx, AJx, Ax or the like, with the example hand we would end in either 5S or 5N. Inelegant, but you pays your money you take your chances.

 

Thanks for your opinions. :blink:

 

WinstonM

[PriorKnowledge]

There are 2 hands at issue here:

A slammish 4M5m hand and a weak 4M6m hand

 

Commonly played (Without discussion, this is what I would expect playing 4-suit transfer):

1N 2C; 2S 3D = 4h5d GF hand with slam interest and no major fit

1N 2C; 2H 2S = 4s game invite only. Opener passes or 3S with 4s; and 2N or 3N with <4s

1N 2N; 3D 3S = single-suited diam hand with spade shortness and slam interest. With the weak 4M6m hand, you just transfer to the m and pass, ignoring the 4-card major.

 

But that gives up the chance to play the 44 major fit with the weak 4M6m hand.

 

Alternative with extended Garbage Stayman:

1N 2C; 2S 3D = 4h6d weak signoff

1N 2C; 2H 2S = 4s game invite OR 4s6m weak. Opener passes or 3S with 4s; and 2N or 3C with <4s

1N 2N; 3D 3S = 4s5d GF hand with slam interest.

 

You gain the ability to play a 4-4 major fit with the 4M6m weak hands. But there is a price to pay. With the strong 4M5m hands, the slam bidding is more compressed because you are at the 3M level and opener has not yet chose a trump suit. In the Commonly Played version, the major suit has been ruled out at the 3m level.

 

Some Commonly Played auctions:

1N 2C; 2S 3D; 3S 4D .... 3S=q-bid accepting diam; 4D=RKC for diam

1N 2C; 2S 3H = Anon splinter

1N 2C; 2S 4C = RKC for spades

1N 2C; 2S 4D = balanced slam try in spades

 

But the Alternative:

1N 2N; 3D 3S; 4C ... What is 4C? Does that accept spades or diam? Seems you need 4D to accept diam and 4S to accept spades and you have lost a great deal of bidding space.

[bearmum]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=saq84h83dakq108c94]133|100|Scoring: IMP

I'm not too big on systemic inventions because everyone it seems has a better way.  But in an uncontested auction, when partner opens 1N, this hand for me becomes awkward.  It occurred to me that one might use Jacoby Transfer to solve the problem - transfer to spades and then rebid 4D with 4/5 and rebid 3D when 5/4 or 5/5.  Further thinking showed that this same treatment could be used instead on 4441 slam try patterns by transferring into a 4-card major and then jumping to the appropreate suit at the 4-level.  This would allow the direct jump (if using 4 suit txs) to 3H/S as 3154 pattern.  Is there anything in print on this Canape' approach to Jacoby?

 

Thanks.[/hv]

 

WinstonM

my reg p and I play 1NT 2♥(xfer) 2♠ 3♦ as 4♠and 5♦ and sufficient points for game (opposite a 13-15 NT) -- up to opener where we play :blink:

[Fluffy]

Start playing 4 suit transfers before trying anything more complicated.

 

Keep transfer + 4x as splinter, it is way easier to remember.

[mike777]

Start playing 4 suit transfers before trying anything more complicated.

 

Keep transfer + 4x as splinter, it is way easier to remember.

I don't know why but I hate 4 suit transfers, never played, never will. I know this is very much out of mainstream. I also can barely stand to play Smolen, nice guy, have no idea why but at least I will try and play Smolen for no other reason a man I respect likes it. Same goes for 0314, at least Kantar gave us a reason to reconsider it but another player who I respect plays it with kickback so I am coming around. Speaking of Kickback..hated it at first..now I am being seduced.

 

 

Any event, my last session with HeartA and PClayton, seems to reconfirm Fred and Justin's and many other points for us bottom class players. Just bid your hand normal, and practice playing the cards and defense.

 

To end this Rant, WinstonM, perhaps your more complicated style is better, hope you win but one more reason for me to stick with novice bidding.

[Winstonm]

perhaps your more complicated style is better

 

I'm not so sure complex is a good thing, Mike, LoL. But you know how this game goes sometimes - one thing leads to another and then another and the next thing you know you have something like Meckwell's 800 pages of system notes without the time to re-read them and without the skill level of either Meckstroth or Rodwell to make them operate at peak efficiency.

 

And it's not as complicated as it sounds: just different combinations of existing treatments.

 

But we do have this one hole....AQxx....ROFLOL...see what I mean? :blink:

 

WinstonM

[whereagles]

I think a natural approach (stayman then diamonds) does the job just fine.

Yes.

[Fluffy]

Start playing 4 suit transfers before trying anything more complicated.

 

Keep transfer + 4x as splinter, it is way easier to remember.

I don't know why but I hate 4 suit transfers, never played, never will. I know this is very much out of mainstream. I also can barely stand to play Smolen

Probaby this is because you don't believe the advantages of receiving the lead from the strong balanced hand is as big advantage as me and other does. I am so crazy about such thing that I play transfers after 1♣ and 1♥ openings so that opener receives teh lead even more :).

[inquiry]

Is there anything in print on this Canape' approach to Jacoby?

WinstonM,

 

You should check out http://www.bridgematters.com/onent.htm, they have done all the hard work for you already. They extend both Jacoby Transfer and Stayman. Work your way through the three variations of how they respond to 1NT. It is worth the read.

 

On this one, you have several options, including bidding 2C and then, if partner doesn't bid 2S (any other bid), rebid 2S as a "range ask" to find out if he is minimum or maximum. Or bid 2C and then over any response by partner bid 3C which is a transfer to diamonds... you will obviously keep bidding. Or you can bid 2H (transfer to 2S), then rebid 3C (transfer to 3D, GF).

 

Ben

[Guest Jlall]

BEN! You're alive!! lol...haven't seen you in a while.

[inquiry]

BEN! You're alive!! lol...haven't seen you in a while.

I had an illness in the family, so I was away for (gosh) almost two weeks....Things better now.

 

Ben

[Guest Jlall]

Sorry to hear that, glad things are going better hope everything is alright.

[Winstonm]

Yes, Ben, it is really good to see you back and I hope all is well now. Thanks for the website. This system work is brutal and not much fun, to boot. :)

 

WinstonM